Still posting my way about the Church and abortion and other issues. I notice as I go to different blogs the anti-abortion commenters advance two arguments. Some attempt to give reasons for the Church's position. Others simply argue against abortion because the Church opposes it. Of course, these in a sense are two different positions.
I think the argument that abortions at all stages after conception constitues murder is extremely weak, and I have given reasons for this here. But going to the second argument---abortion is wrong because the Church says it is raises some questions. The standard argument of this second group when they see that the position of the Church has virtually no support even among Catholics is that the Church is not a "democracy" so the fact that so few Catholics as others agree with the Church on this issue is pointless. But several questions come to mind:
Is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Catholics worth nothing?
Is it fair to say that this great majority of Catholics condone murder?
Why do the leaders of the anti-abortion movement ,who insist that abortion is murder, not see a contradiction in that belief and their general belief that at least the initiators of the murder should not suffer severe legal penalties?
If political figures should be denied communion because they are pro-choice, or, if as some argue these figures have made themselves unworthy of communion because of their stance, should not the near 80 per cent of lay Catholics not be in the same position? Should they be bared from communion?
If the Church is infallible on this issue, as many commenters assume, why did Paul6 give a rather long explanation for his 'ruling'. Is the explanation necessary? Is a person not being somewhat ingenuous when they give reasons for feeling abortion is murder, then trump that by saying, the arguments don't really make any difference ? The Church has spoken and that settles it.
I do not mean these questions to be overly argumentative. But I do feel the Church should have a position of them. Jack
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Jack,
ReplyDeleteDid you see my last response here?
Is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Catholics worth nothing?
It is you who make the opinion of the overwhelming majority of Catholics worth nothing. Catholics in the Southern Hemisphere (who make up about 2/3rds of all Catholics) agree widely with the Church's position.
Is it fair to say that this great majority of Catholics condone murder?
That depends on your standards of fairness. I would say that Catholics who condone abortion are condoning what is, in fact, murder. But they generally don't believe that it is murder, so it is not the same as if they were saying "yes, it's a human person, but we can kill it anyway".
Let me ask you this question from a different perspective. If some KKK guy honestly believes that black people are subhuman and that we whities can put them down the way we would an obnoxious coyote, is that KKK guy condoning murder?
Why do the leaders of the anti-abortion movement ,who insist that abortion is murder, not see a contradiction in that belief and their general belief that at least the initiators of the murder should not suffer severe legal penalties?
Is killing someone in self-defense murder? If an insane person kills someone, have they committed murder? I think most pro-lifers who would not put the aborting mothers on trial are assuming that those mothers are (or would be, if abortion were illegal) in dire enough circumstances that their personal responsibility is greatly reduced.
If political figures should be denied communion because they are pro-choice, or, if as some argue these figures have made themselves unworthy of communion because of their stance, should not the near 80 per cent of lay Catholics not be in the same position? Should they be bared from communion?
Fortunately, it's not Catholic doctrine that pro-abortionists of any sort must be denied communion by the minister. Usually those that support that kind of barring for politicians also support it for non politicians, or at least say that they should themselves choose not to receive it.
If the Church is infallible on this issue, as many commenters assume, why did Paul6 give a rather long explanation for his 'ruling'. Is the explanation necessary? Is a person not being somewhat ingenuous when they give reasons for feeling abortion is murder, then trump that by saying, the arguments don't really make any difference ? The Church has spoken and that settles it.
Are you kidding me? When has the Church in recent memory ever given a *short* explanation for one of its rulings? (Although to be sure, I don't know which document you are referring to; I don't remember Pope Paul VI saying anything about abortion). The way I see it, when the Church gives explanations for something, those explanations are not necessarily infallible themselves. But they are meant to be supporting reasons, so they should be seriously considered by anyone tempted to reject the conclusion they support. Those who argue that it doesn't matter if the explanations are insufficient have a point; they are simply pointing out an argument from authority - the infallible authority of the Church applies to Catholic doctrine because the Holy Spirit protects that doctrine, not because the reasoning people use to get there is always wise or correct. Does that make sense?
God bless,
Anna
Anna, first an apology. I was refering to Humana Vitae which deals with contraception; but I still think my point stands.
ReplyDeleteWhere are you getting your South American information? Of course, there are mixtures of the "old" ways and Christianity.So you do accept that American catholics are not worth listening to.
Anna, you know I love you(don't tell Ken) but your response on the responsibility of the aborting mothers is not up to your usual standards. Most murderers are in some kind of dire circumstances, but couts do not accept this.
Yes, the KKK man is condoning murder. I'm not sure I follow you.
On barring from communion, if they should bar themselves about 80 percent could not take communion.
I repeat: the great majority of people, our laws, our customs, our common sense---none accept a single cell as a human person. Life, yes (as my hair) but not a person. Jack
Anna, could you comment on my slippery slope argument under "I suspend, part two. Jack
ReplyDeleteAnna, I may be on wrong post. What I had found on spontaneous abortions was approximately 50 percent of unknown pregnancies abort without the woman being aware. Another 15-20 per cent occur later. I did find the two-thirds figure which squares with the above, but cannot give exact cite. Jack
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