Whew, got by the election and now back to blog.
Have read Theology of the Body, well most of it. The closest relationship of most married people is to their spouse and their children. Both unique experiences most would agree. And so here comes JP2 having sworn off both--spouse and children--as getting in the way of knowing God, and the old fella decides to tell us how to conduct our lives INCLUDING our sexual and parental lives.
It's kind of like my 5 year old grandson telling us how to do deep sea diving based on his experience in his 12 inch deep wading pool!!
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Does a divorce lawyer have to have been divorced in order to tell you how best to do it? Does a psychologist have to be insane in order to recognize insanity in others?
ReplyDeleteFirst-hand experience is a good way, but not the only way, to grow wise on a topic.
I am working on a longer post in response to an earlier thread... Don't know when I will finish it. :)
God bless,
Anna
Anna, I meant to mention in my post your argument about does a doctor have to have a desease to treat it.My unmarried high school teacher of "home living" used to argue that. But I didn't post it.
ReplyDeleteHowever things like marriage and having children cannot be learned from a book or by reading about others. I do not believe that JP2 had any real idea of the relationship of husband and wife and parent and child. These must be understood emotionally as well as intellectually.
Yes, a psychologist would have to have been insane to know the feeling and emotions of the insane. That is usually not possible, but I have never heard of a psychologist who can tell what the insane person is "experiencing" and I do not believe JP2 has any feeling for the husband-wife relationshop or the father-child relationship.
I do not believe a person can be 'wise' on intimate relationships if they have never experienced them. Can a person discourse on the full meaning of sex between a man and women without having that experience. I don't believe so. And the catholics I know do not go to priests for sex tips or parenting tips.
Your divorce analogy does not work. The lawyer is only talking about the legal aspect of divorce, not the emotional tension of a divorce.
Good to hear from you. Jack
Anna, if you have a chance, check the boys blog tomorrow. We are getting them a car. Hell, why not. My stock "portfolio" has just about gone. They need a car. Alice and I and Meg and Jimmy have three cars between us. Not enough. They have never asked, but we want them to have one. They will have to share it, but I think they will love it. I'm not going to tell them tonight, but have alice put the keys on their bed when she pulls their feet tomorrow morning to wake them up. Jack
ReplyDeleteJack
ReplyDeleteYou heard about the Protestant minister who gave excellent marital advice – but it was always advice on how to get along with his wife.
The empathy of personal experience is usually a positive but it does not necessarily give the broader range of perspective.
A celebrate priest who is a good listener and observer can easily be more effective than a person who’s views are heavily weighted by maintaining a marital relationship with his true love.
Hi Hank,
ReplyDeleteBeen missing you lately---no election. You had a great site.
I disagree with you on the celibate priest issue, as you would expect. I guess everybody to their opinion, but I would find it difficult to talk about marriage if I had never been married . Kind of like telling what life was like in a wheelchair for years, if that had never happened. I don't know where I got that analogy (the wheelchair)but you see my point.
Listen, I have more priest friends than you might think, but I wouldn't ask them for sex tips.:). Too old anyway. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteBut priests aren't in the habit of giving sex advice, as far as I know. They aren't marriage counselors. (Well, a few might be, but they are the exception.) What we are talking about is not the ability of unmarried priests to give good practical advice, but the ability of unmarried priests to say what is right and wrong and to point out the theological meaning of relationships.
A celibate priest doesn't need to have experienced sex outside of marriage in order to know that sex outside of marriage damages our soul. A bishop doesn't need to have experienced homosexual sex in order to know that it is not a part of God's plan. Just as you, Jack, do not need to have committed murder in order to know that murder is wrong.
Jesus didn't need to be married in order to discourse on marriage. (Matthew 19:12, Matthew 22:30 for example). As I recall, Paul didn't need to be married in order to tell us that marriage was an image of the divine love between Father and Son (or was it Son and Church?). Nor do priests or bishops or anyone else need to have experienced marriage or parenthood in order to have theological insights into them or to develop insights that others have had.
Oh, and I don't have to have been in a wheelchair to say that being in a wheelchair does not justify being greedy (for example).
Jack, you rock. The boys are definitely on a "high" from the car. :)
God bless,
Anna
Anna
ReplyDeleteYour examples are about understanding something on a rational basis. A child understands, for example, that a man and women have children. But I am not talking about mere cognitive understand as your examples show. Of course, a priest understands that people get married and have kids, but he doss NOT understand the feeling of marital love and parenthood.
Hey, I never realized what a car meant to people. When I was in high school only one kid, John Carter, had his own car out of one thousands kids in my graduating class. Today, I guess, you HAVE to have a car!!! Frank and Derr are in a new world. As soon as they get home, the red car goes out. Well, I am really out of the younger set. But they are good young men. I trust them. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteI'm pretty sure Theology of the Body is meant to be understood on a rational basis.
As for cars, I would say that it's not so much that you HAVE to have one as that it is really, really cool to have one, especially if you are a guy and especially if the car is fire-engine red with lots of buttons and features inside. :) (Personally, I'm not a big fan of the red color, but most guys seem to think that's the coolest).
Since you seem to like reading, maybe you would like to read a book called the Five Love Languages, by Gary Chapman. The basic idea is that each person has a primary way of expressing love that means the most to them. You can read brief descriptions of the five "languages" here. Frank and I were trying to figure out what language is probably yours.
God bless,
Anna
Anna
ReplyDeleteAlice's language is absolutely touching. I guess mine is acts of service. But have to study mine a bit further. Problem: Alice loves to touch people. I'm not big on that because I was around teen agers alot and they can be real 'feely.' Not always showing love, but to stir hormones. Jack
Anna,
ReplyDeleteI do make a big difference between love and sex. They should go together, but are often separate. Not that such is always bad. Frank and his brother love to be touched; by Alice (love) and by their girlfriends (maybe sex?). I'm a little shy to ask them about being touched by Emily and Cindy.
Jack,
ReplyDeleteThe boys' love language is definitely touch, for both of them. The topic of love languages came up in the first place because they seemed to think there was something babyish or wrong about enjoying being touched or wanting to touch someone. So I mentioned the love languages thing as a way to show that it was just part of the way God made them.
It was easy to tell, even from his first essays, that Frank was a touch person. The way that he talked about Alice touching him when he was sick; the way he talked about the priest who put his hand on Frank's forehead to bless him; the way he talked about Emily ruffling his hair. And Derr, too, was excited by Alice pulling his foot, right off the bat.
Everybody likes sex. But being a touch person is not primarily about sex, even in a marriage relationship. It's about giving hugs, holding hands, stroking a cheek, ruffling hair, playing footsies under the table, giving a massage, etc.
I understand being reluctant to touch people. It's not my love language, either (I'm a Quality Time person). And when you see people using sex selfishly instead of out of lasting love, it's easy to think of touching as something shallow. If you had parents that weren't physically affectionate with you as a child, it can even be quite uncomfortable to touch other people, even ones you love (and especially in public). Maybe actually reading the book would help (it's got some great stories of different couples); but either way, I think it is worthwhile to see that touching can be a legitimate expression of love. Like all the languages, it can also be abused to pretend love that isn't there. And while we need to watch out for this, it's best not to go so far that we deprive those we love of the form of expressing love that means the most to them. There's this one lady I know through my church, who obviously likes hugs a lot, so I try to remember to give her a hug every time I see her, even though this does not come naturally to me (and occasionally has felt awkward). Giving the boys a hug now and then or just resting your hand on their head briefly might mean a lot to them, for example.
If you figure out what your own language is for sure (reading the book might help with that?), you should let Alice and the boys know. And I'm curious, too. :)
God bless,
Anna
Anna
ReplyDeleteJust got a few minutes before 'crowd' comes.
Alice and I have gotten a big kick out of discussing the 'love language'thing.
She kidded me yesterday by telling a story about a contradiction she sees in me. I am very, let's say, open about sex as you can tell by my blog. But, she points out, I am rather modest if not prudish about the human body outside of Romance. She told me that when Frank was injured and she and Father W. were helping keep him dry from sweating from the pain and pills by changing his clothes, I was very nervous. When we (priest and Alice) pulled off his T-shirt to change it and then got ready to change his pajama pants, I got out of my chair and threw a towell over Frank from his waist down--for modesty purposes. When I left the room they got a chuckle over this. Okay, I say, but what was wrong with what I did. 20 year olds don't like to be 'seen.' I don't think she has ever told Frank. Alice kids it was not Frank who was embarassed but me-----the liberated sex PRUDE. She kids me about other cases of over modesty. I never helped with his feet and when he was circumcised I always ask her to help him when he needed anything. Okay,laugh at the old guy.:) Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteYeah, I get a kick out of discussing things like the love languages too.
It is definitely ironic that you who accuse the Church of being too restrictive about sex are uncomfortable with other physical contact. I can't help but wonder if the two things are related some way, but I don't know how.
I do think it's good that you protected Frank's modesty. Modesty is called a virtue after all, isn't it? At least I think it's good.
Did Alice think you were an "acts of service" guy too?
God bless,
Anna
Jack,
ReplyDeleteWas that you that posted on my blog, about "one out of three is good"?
God bless,
Anna
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteGee, Jack, I thought you liked Obama. I figured you would have been glad to see me defending his presidency instead of complaining about all the evil catholics who voted for him. :)
ReplyDeleteAnna
I never said sex is bad. I do think the church is really out of it on sex issues. Celibates have a fear of sex, as Crossan writes. And celibates make all the rules, don't they?
ReplyDeleteMy point is casual touching can be an excuse for sex interest. Why not be open about it. Remember Krutch: "Sweating palm to palm" may be misunderstood as love.
Alice's and the priest's point was it was much more important to help Frank than to worry about seeing his body. They were right there, I'll admit. Jack
Anna,
ReplyDeleteYes. That was I. (English teacher)
Anna, you lost me. You said maybe it's God's will that Obama won, then say you voted for Grandpa
Jack,
ReplyDeleteEven if it was true that most celibates have a fear of sex - something I highly doubt - I don't think that that is grounds for saying that they don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the theology of sex.
Casual touching can be an excuse for sex interest? Do you mean foreplay? I am not really familiar with the context of your "sweating palm to palm" quote. As for "why not just be open about it", I would say that for some people, the casual touching is a goal all by itself, apart from any interest in sex. And for other people, casual touching IS their way of being open about it.
Yes, it is more important to help Frank than to worry about his modesty. But if you can do both, that's good too.
I think you got my political thing backward. First I voted for McCain (Grandpa? I mean, I know he's older, but aren't you about as old as he is?). Then, after Obama won, the way people reacted to his election convinced me that it was really God's will for Obama to win.
To be sure, you're not exactly the target audience for that post. I was writing it mostly for the sake of any pro-life Catholics who were disappointed by Obama's win, to give them reason to keep faith and be encouraged instead of discouraged by Obama's victory. Make any more sense?
Anna
Anna,
ReplyDeleteFor heavens sake,casual touching is not the same as foreplay!! But it can lead to foreplay.
Anna, if you don't think most priests are afraid of sex....well I tried to help. I've never known any priest that was hot after the ladies, ever!! What about old Mahoney (?) in L.A. He was in a minor seminary at 14. You're 14, and you think you'll give up all sex, including sex thoughts, for the rest of your life. Sounds a bit sick to me.
As I have cited before,about 80 percent of all catholic cleric abuse was to males, as opposed to about 25-30 percent in the general population. Could that give us a hint. No matter how hard you try, and I not going to admit Ken is innately inferior to Mahoney.
Yah, my body is older than McCain, but my mind still works. Not so sure about Grandpa.
And about Frank.20 years old, 6-2 tall, big feet, blood, and twisted toes.Not for the squemish. That's why Alice is a great nurse, and I make nervous jokes when I go to the doctor. I admit it.(:) Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteI've been reading and between one old fool to another, saint Anna has as much a chance of changing your mind as she would have by going out in this cold weather to change a tire on my car by using my jack.
Hey, I hear ya Jack! With Our Jesus The Christ anything is possible! :)
God Bless,
Peace
Victor,
ReplyDeleteI haven't given up on Anna. She is SMART. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteI hope that You have as much faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus The Christ as you have in Anna cause it seems to me at this time that He's The only One who might eventually get both of you to see eye to eye.
I hear ya Jack! Have you been drinking again sinner vic?
God Bless,
Peace
Jack,
ReplyDeleteAs far as I can tell, homosexuals don't have any particular fear of sex. If it was true that Church teachings about sex were being formed only by the sexual tendencies of a homosexual priesthood, and had no basis in God's truth, then wouldn't the Church say that homosexual sex was ok?
It doesn't sound sick to me for a 14 year old to plan to give up sex for the rest of his life, for God's sake. It sounds sweet and a tad bit naive, but not sick. Remember, kids are idealistic, Jack. It's easy for them to get caught up in an idea and believe that they are going to do it for the rest of their life. (They are not always so good at carrying through and sticking to those ideas... but deciding on them in the first place is hardly surprising from a 14 year old.)
No matter how hard you try, and I not going to admit Ken is innately inferior to Mahoney.
Gosh, Jack, I don't believe that Ken is innately inferior to Cardinal Mahoney. I wish you would get that straight.
Anna
Vic,
ReplyDeleteYou said it. Jesus Christ has the power to get even me and Jack to see eye to eye. :)
Anna
Oh my goodness what have I started?
ReplyDeleteHey! Relax Victor,you're not the only one in this world you know! Let me take care of this.
Forget that hotel of fools with all those invisible imaginary cells of yours. They will only lead you to complete destruction. Follow me and everything will be just like it was in the old days! Remember all the fun you had and because of us you never ever really lost a fight! Don't forget our modo! If it feels good go for "IT" and hell to everything else.....
Hey folks I must apologize for Victor, I mean sinner vic cause he's had a little too much to drink right now! Why can't these idiot so called alien angels stop these cells from posting under the influence, it would certainly make our job a lot easier.
Who said that?
Forgive me Anna and Jack cause for some reason, I forgot what I was going to say.
Please don't laugh at me!
Well you should have thought of that before you posted under the influence and I can't wait to see how your so called Jesus gets you out of this one!
God Bless,
Hey you forgot Peace!
Anna,
ReplyDeleteYou lost me. Because of society in general, Gays most often hide in the 'closet.' I thought you agreed once with me that priests do that at times. I say priest have a fear of sex with women and a fear of admitting they might be gay. Quite logical, it seems to me.
In the last couple of days both Chaput and some retired Italian cardinal have been quoted about the great "gift" God has given them to remain celibate---they say "chaste" but we know what they mean. They give a passing flip to sex, but make clear they really have the "Gift" which Ken obviously Ken does not have!!!
Anna, you keep saying the Church does not teach this, but they clearly do. And why to be "really" close to God do you have to be celibate. How many married saints are there compared to celibate/virginal ones? Out of the hundreds of saints JP2 "made" (oops, wrong word)how many were married?
Of course, the celibates aren't going to tell Ken he is kind of spiritually not as great as he could be if he hadn't "fallen" (yes, right word)for Anna---you temptress!!!!! Jack
Gay priests hide in closet because they fear sex with women and/or that they might be gay! Really?
ReplyDeleteGod gives us all gifts but we’re really not better than any other of God’s Children even if we honestly believe we are.
I may not agree with it but I believe that celibate/virginal humans in reality is certainly most favorable to God even while during The Blessed Sacrament of Marriage but for any one to think that they are more Loved by God cause they are true celibate would certainly be wrong.
No matter how often we’ve fallen, God will always Love each and every one of us every time we ask for forgiveness with a sincere heart but He certainly won’t love our sinful manner no matter how often or how strong a case we may make of “IT.” For God so Loved this world that He gave His Only Begotten Son that who so ever believeth in HIM should not perish but have Everlasting Life.
How did you ever get away from the internet cell police patrol sinner vic?
Hey! I can’t lie Jack, my wife helped by giving them, these alien cells, all a little food which distracted them long enough for me to get this comment in.
I hear ya sinner vic! You really were not drunk, it was just your imaginary spiritual friendly cells playing tricks on your right and left brain hemisphere. Right?
There's no getting anything pass you Jack! :)
God Bless,
Peace
Hey, Vic
ReplyDeleteYou say God prefers us to be celibate? I tought He might have wanted the human species to go on. Hmm. Quoting you: Celibate/virginal humans are most favorable to God.
I don't believe it, but, you're right,the Church leaders say that. I wonder why?
Jack, between you and me, a couple of old fools!
ReplyDeleteI hear ya! Speak for yourself Victor!
Fare enough?
Jack! There’s a lot of things that I’ll never understand here on earth no matter how long I’m going to live and I’m only talking about humanity stuff here.
I hear ya again Jack! That’s only because you’re not the smartest guy in the world Victor and with all do respect many out there even might probably say that on occasion(s) you’re not playing with a full deck if you know what I mean?
Ok! I’ll let that one pass Jack :)
Now with the spiritual vast knowledge that I’ve accumulated through my old age by praying, going to church and yes I even made a few sacrifices in my days and if I was to tell you some of them you might find “IT” hard to believe cause I’m sure that our good bishop does! I know that it was not easy for him to send me only one official letter while our five girls were growing up telling me in so many words that he knew spiritually speaking that it wasn’t easy on the home front but he did say again in so many other words that he would keep praying for me. Jack between you and me, he still has not stop praying cause daily, I’ve been seeing all kinds of improvement in our families lives .
Forgive me vic but there you go ranting and raving again and missing the issue of you believing that God prefers us to be celibate?
Thanks for waking me UP Jack!
Now that you mentioned it Jack, Yes you’re right I do strongly believe that!
Go on? Tell me more Jack!
Let me play the devil’s advocate for a sec sinner vic! You certainly don’t believe for a moment that Jesus was really “Word” made Flesh” by His Heavenly Father and we were made in His Own Image, do you? Hey! Vic, if that was true none of us would ever need to worry about having sex and that would be kind of you having to drink beer down here cause there ain’t no beer in Heaven. Right sinner vic?
Gee Jack! I never looked at it that way before. No Beer and no sex in Heaven? Let me think about that one for a moment!
I kid you not sinner vic! Still playing devils advocate mind you so let me say that the next thing you know those Church leaders will be telling Catholics to accept all their teachings as some kind of Faith Mysteries. It’s bad enough that these so called true Christian Church leaders want us to believe that three equals one. “One God in Three Persons” How can reality ever accept such a silly thing! I wouldn’t be surprised hearing in the future that while this Jesus The Christ God’s Only Begotten Son was dying on His Cross for all His followers and while He was in great pain, He called all His Human Faithful Cells from the pass, present, future, eternity, infinity and beyond to come and take over His pain and for just a second His Heavenly Father allowed “IT” to be. When He heard humanity has god yell out, “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me? Then Jesus took over and Relinquished His Spirit to His Heavenly Father. By the way sinner vic, 60 seconds equals a minute and 60 minutes equals an hour and spiritually speaking, 60 human faithful years equals “Grade One with God's Angels!”
Hey Jack! This stuff is way over my head and just because you think that God might have made one of your cell(s) fisherman of men won’t cut “IT” with me this time. There’s plenty of fish in the see so why pick on me?
If you’re going to be that way Jack, I’m just going to have to think three times while drinking before I comment here again. :)
Who’s laughing?
God Bless,
Peace