Sunday, September 14, 2008

The 'slippery' slope and beyond.

Few things in the world are more irritating to me than the debate between the so called "pro-life" adherents and the "pro-choice" advocates. I say irritating because both sides are being dishonest. They both are using the 'slippery slope' fallacy to "prove" their point. That is, they are assuming a strict necessity of progress from point A to Point Z without offering any proof that all the interceding 'letters' must follow from their start at A. In a practical sense they assume the POSSIBLE final outcome and then try to show how A always leads to B, B to C, and on to their hoped for conclusion. I am dealing here with how the Church plays this fallacy, but am just as critical of the pro-choice extremist who say "It's my body and I can do anything I want with it, including choosing to have an abortion at any time." This is blatant nonsense. No one has the right, except in the most extraordinay and rare circumstances to kill an unborn child 10 minutes before its delivery. But whydo they argue such a fantasy? The 'slippery slope' fallacy. If I can't control my peproductive rights, the Church will 'run in' and say: We will legally control your reproductive rights.

Now the Church is the same. Looking at the current scene over the Nancy Pelosy abortion statement, the hierarchy is in a veritable feeding frenzy, trying to use the Church's vague if not false terminology . The church plays word games either deliberately, as I believe, or out of ignorance. Yes, the bishops were responding directly to the Church's position on abortion, but ALSO trying to slip in some anti-choice arguments.

Let's take the"wisdom" of Cardinal Egan who 'bolsters' his argument against abortion by saying that anyone who does not know a fetus is a person need only look at a sonogram and see the fetus "waving and smiling to us". What? Can the good(bad) Cardinal tell me how or show me a one cell waving and smiling. Sheer nonsense. But you say he was talking about abortion. It makes no difference. His statement, fully in line with his position that this one cell is a person like a two month old baby, makes no sense to the basic argument.

Looking further, I notice our mighty bishops talking about "Human life" (I agree the fertilized egg is human life, but so are my fingernails) "life", "human beings" "human species" "when the human fetus becomes a human being in the strictist sense" (why not at the one cell stage?) and yes, one reference to "person".

From over 50 years debating the abortion issue, I say with some certainty, that all serious discussions from both sides comes down to the idea of "person". This is the term used in science, philosophy, ethics and legal fields to identify what all want to protect. Some Church spokesmen, including Cardinals, like to wax over our guarantee of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, trying to argue that since a fertilized egg is "life" (as is sperm) our founding fathers desired to protect the first fertilized cell. One might ask does that single cell also have the right to "liberty" and "the pursuit of happiness?" What does that mean when we say a single cell is a person? Our laws and speech are not simply normative, but descriptive; and nowhere do I find a single cell 'called' a person. Take that back. A handfull of catholic theologians, philosophers, do use "person" to describe that one cell. But the overwhelming evidence of usage is that a single cell is not a person, or for that matter a human being or a child, or a baby.

Now where are we. A few Christian (mainly Catholic) clerics and theologians say the impregnated egg is a person. Almost all others say "no." And I shall show later how even most catholics cannot accept a single cell as a person. These Christian/Catholics (most of them) realize the issue of what is a "person" is a theological/philosophcial question. That is fine, if the cleric, theologian, philosopher or devout Catholic sincerely believes this is a theological/philosophical issue.I think people know what I think on this issue. To the sincere believer in the one cell as person doctrine I say fine. There are arguments to be made. People disagree.

BUT, and this is the thrust of those who reject the 'slippery slope' "arguments" of the pro-life and pro-choice factions, even those who are not using the 'slippery slope' argument intentionally:

WE HAVE HERE A HIGHLY DISPUTED ISSUE. I DO NOT BELIEVE THE CHURCH SHOULD ATTEMPT TO ENFORCE ITS THEOLOGICAL POSITION ON THOSE WITH DIFFERENT THEOLOGICAL POSITIONS. I THOUGHT THE CHURCH HAD GONE BEYOND THAT. ENFORCE YOUR BELIEFS ON ANY OF YOUR MEMBERS AS A CONDITION OF MEMBERSHIP. DO NOT FORCE ALL TO ACCEPT YOUR POSITION BY LAW.

7 comments:

  1. I don’t think that it’s The Catholic Cardinals that you should be concerned about but God and His Angels where not one cell did He use to create us and I’ll go as far as saying that God knows everyone of us even before we were created or formed in our mother’s womb. He Loves each and everyone of His Children and I've heard it said in so many words while I was serving high mass as an altar boy that God would never forget the unborn even if their mother did and I still believe that.

    Are you implying that if Our Heavenly Father can’t explain it to us in a way that we all can understand then we Catholics should not accept it on faith alone cause we’re in the twenty first century now?

    Let’s not also forget that God did say to Thomas in so many words to be happy and believe what He said without seeing any proof..

    Trust me Jack if you defend the unborn without understanding cells, you won’t be sorry in the long run “The Blessed Mysteries of Our Trinity.” is not a slippery slope.

    I’m sorry that I won’t be able to debate this with you forever but depending on your reply and if my heart and mind think that I might be able to help a Catholic Christian Brother then I’ll again comment but if not then we’ll just have to agree to disagree and then discuss “IT” later with Jesus as our ref somewhere in Heaven.

    God Bless,

    Peace!

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  2. Victor, faith and reason should not conflict. I appreciate your concern and hope you understand that I hope my posts are helpful to you. Good luck. Jack

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  3. I agree with you that in a perfect heavenly world faith and reason should not conflict but unfortunately we’re not there yet. Jesus did leave us His Church and He did leave “His Peter” in charge.

    We His Apostles are just not smart enough yet to really figure out what part of His Body Peter really is.

    We His so called followers should also know at least in our heart without understanding that He will someday come back again with a new heart for us and hopefully then His people will be able to hear His Voice.

    Until then, I thank you for your Genuine concern and hope that in someway my comments have also been of help to you.

    Forgive me Jesus if I’ve on occasion bit off more than I can chew!

    God Bless and Peace to all His Children

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  4. Hi there Jack! Good to read your blog again; I need to add you as a feed so I don't miss when you have a new post.

    I DO NOT BELIEVE THE CHURCH SHOULD ATTEMPT TO ENFORCE ITS THEOLOGICAL POSITION ON THOSE WITH DIFFERENT THEOLOGICAL POSITIONS.

    This is Joe Biden's argument, too, and the one that pro-choice Catholics fall back on. It's been consistently corrected by the Church hierarchy for two reasons.

    1. Asking the Church to keep her opinions to herself puts a restriction on Catholics that does not exist for any other citizen. Lobbyists, corporations, private citizens, societies, and organizations are all allowed to advocate for their position. Why should Catholics be excluded from the conversation? From your post, it seems that you're suggesting the Catholic worldview is somehow inferior or less valid than a worldview arrived at by someone who doesn't believe in God or take their direction from an organized religion. Make no mistake: everyone has an opinion and it has a right to be heard.

    2. The personhood of the fetus is not a theological position any more than the personhood of a black person is a theological position. The cause of abolition encountered the EXACT issues we are facing today in regards to abortion. The predominant view in the US was that black people were no fully persons, and this was backed up by science (phrenologists measuring head size to prove intellectual limitations) sociology (attributing slaves' behavior and some African tribal family structures as evidence of their animal-nature) and the Bible (the tribes of Ham being less in the sight of God.) "Reason" can be twisted in any direction. The Bible doesn't always lead us to the truth. Even science can be tainted by a scientist's personal worldview. The position of the Church is no less reasonable or valid than the position of an abortionist.

    You write that the issue of what is a "person" is a theological/philosophical question. Nope. Not when rights are only conferred upon "persons" as a legal definition. Like the slavery example, when people are oppressed, marginalized, harmed and/or killed as a result of a society's failure to recognize them as persons, then the definition of a person has entered the political realm. It will take political might to resolve the disagreement, and thus the Church has a right and duty to be a vocal and integral part of the process.

    Obviously, I believe the Church's position on this is correct. I don't need to see something that looks like a baby to know that even a single cell is unique, with DNA that will never again be duplicated by any other combination of genes in the entire universe for all the rest of time. Given that I truly believe the fetus is a person and deserves to live, how could I possibly not do everything in my power to protect that life, including advocating for laws to protect it?

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  5. tienne, too bad we lost contact; I have dealth with your points in great detail in post and comments before.

    Just a brief response.

    Of course the Church has a right to express its opinions. I used the word "enforce". Assume, for example, that by a 51-49 percent margin Christian Scientist came to power. Would they have the right to eliminate doctors and medicine? Democracy does apply protection for the rights of the minority, does it not.I said nothing about the Church not having a right to their opinion on a theological/philosophical matter. BTW I might suggest that the hierarchy work first on their own members since Catholics have the highest abortion rate in America.

    tienne, your point two is not accurate. Our Constitution regonized blacks as persons. The Supreme Court did not deny that Dred Scott was a person. Women could not vote till this century, but they were still consider persons. This is the type of rediculous misleading statement that the pro-life people try to slip by with.

    If one cell is a person, why are spontaneous and sought abortions not counted in our death rates. That would be silly, but that is the only logical outcome of one cell is a person just like your beautiful child?

    The fact that all humans and animals have a unique DNA has nothing to do with whether having DNA makes one a person.A total non sequitur.

    Name a 19th century writer or scientist who did not believe blacks were "persons"?

    I have explained before, and will again, why the Church puts out the myth that one cell is a person. Close to 90 percent of Catholics do not believe one cell is a person, or in the alternative close to 90 per cent of catholics believe in murder.

    Remember the hierarchy of the Church is made up of people who promise never to have a sexual thought, never to have a physical interest in a women, and believe having a parent child relationship detracts from their chance at holiness.

    Great to hear from you. For more details, if you desire, look at my previous posts and comments.

    Good luck to you and your beautiful child. Jack

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  6. Jack,

    Assume, for example, that by a 51-49 percent margin Christian Scientist came to power. Would they have the right to eliminate doctors and medicine?

    Is this Christian Scientist King of America, or is he/she President? Because as President, he/she would not have the power to simply outlaw doctors and medicine. So I don't understand your point. The Catholic Church is not the Queen of America. She is its citizenry and as such she has no power to "enforce" anything. All she does is guide her flock and advocate for laws that protect all people, born and unborn.

    Our Constitution recognized blacks as persons. The Supreme Court did not deny that Dred Scott was a person.

    Nope, the Constitution stated a slave was 3/5 of a person for counting the number of representatives a State could have in Congress, but they had no right to life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness as was applied to the white, freeborn males specified in the Constitution. The Supreme Court, too, denied that Dred Scott was entitled to the rights that were freely given to US citizens. They returned him to slavery against his will. Therefore, he did not count as a full person according to the legal definition.

    If one cell is a person, why are spontaneous and sought abortions not counted in our death rates.

    Our death rates are a tool used by our society to gauge progress in health measures (for instance, to determine whether we are making strides in combating the spread of certain diseases) or to track trends (the numbers of births vs the numbers of deaths show us our population growth or lack thereof) or to determine problems that need to be addressed (a rise in suicides or deaths from heart disease, etc.) The death rate has nothing to do with the personhood of the fetus.

    What you are saying, however, is that we must consider the spontaneous abortion of a one-celled fetus as great a loss as the deliberate abortion of a 20 week fetus if we wish to claim the fetus is a person. Tell me, do you feel the same sense of loss hearing about a 98 year-old woman who dies in bed of old age, surrounded by her family and great-grandchildren, after a full and happy life as you do hearing about a 6 year old boy sodomized to death by a gang of drug dealers? Obviously, one way of dying is peaceful, love-driven and the will of God. The other way is violent, selfish and criminal.

    DNA has nothing to do with whether having DNA makes one a person
    What makes one a person? Breathing air? So personhood is encapsulated by lung function? That doesn't make more sense than having the definition of a person begin when human life begins, at conception.

    Name a 19th century writer or scientist who did not believe blacks were "persons"?
    A simple Wikipedia search brings up a score of them. Samuel George Morton. Louis Agassiz. Rev. Richard Furman. Joseph Smith Jr. Arthur de Gobineau. From the entry on scientific racism: "Polygenist theory alleged that there were different origins of mankind, thus making it possible to conceive of different, biological, human races, or to classify other humans as akin to animals without rights."

    Close to 90 percent of Catholics do not believe one cell is a person, or in the alternative close to 90 per cent of Catholics believe in murder.
    Just because many people believe it doesn't make it true. That's a logical fallacy. American Catholics have been influenced by our society as much as they've been influenced by the Church, despite Her valiant attempts to present us with the truth of the matter. That number speaks to me of the need for better catechesis. It doesn't support the right to abortion in the slightest.

    Remember the hierarchy of the Church is made up of people who promise never to have a sexual thought, never to have a physical interest in a women, and believe having a parent child relationship detracts from their chance at holiness.

    I'm going to be totally honest here. This sort of thing makes me think you are a troll. It's not true, first of all. The fact that you believe it gives me significant pause and casts doubt upon your claim that you are Catholic. Frankly, I hear this sort of thing from anti-Catholics and those who were baptized Catholic but whose parents or schools did not properly instruct them. It's not the sort of thing that an intelligent, prayerful Catholic familiar with the writings and teaching of the Church would say. I know, because I have read through past posts, that your commenters have corrected you and informed you of the context and intent behind the words of the Church Fathers who you are misquoting. They have also urged you to read John Paul II's writings on the Theology of the Body and pointed you to numerous resources on the Church's position on sexuality, marriage, vocations and holiness. Yet you persist in trotting out this distorted view as often as you are able. That's not the action of someone seeking to grow in their faith. It's the action of someone seeking to destroy it.

    I struggle with various aspects of Church teaching, myself. I struggle with birth control, homosexuality, and this very issue (politics of abortion) as well. I weep about it as I say my nightly Rosary. What bothers me is not that you struggle, but that your attitude is not seeking. Rather, it is angry and attempting to prove itself, as though you will arrive at the truth by ridiculing Cardinal Egan and accusing the Church of deliberately misleading us.

    When you cast snide aspersions on the motives of the priests and bishops who have dedicated their lives to helping their flock find and follow Christ, it makes me believe you do not respect the Church. Why would I want to have a conversation with someone like that? All I will get for my efforts is more hostility and venom.

    Are you looking for help, Jack? Or do you want a book deal?

    Best wishes to you and your family.

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  7. tienne, sorry you got so upset. I will say your arguments are totally specious. Jack

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