B, you indicated you would not mind another Horror Story, So here goes. When my son was in 5th grade he was having a hard time, Not with his studies, but with a couple of bullies. I could give background but it had to do with kids realizing ethnic differences. He was knocked down twice and we decided the situation was getting serious.

Our daughter was five. And I was little help. I was gone five days a week going around the state on a political matter, sometimes giving speeches three times a day. I could see Alice was getting in a pressure cooker. Finally she decided John had to change schools; but the public schools had some tight restrictions. There was a catholic school 6 blocks from our house. Alice had taught sunday school there 3 years and our daughter was baptized there.

We went to the school on a Friday and the two nuns who met us were most gracious. They said they would be delighted to have John there. I, Alice, and John were more than thrilled!! We raced around town to get his uniform{not an easy task}. Alice and John were completely different people. I was very happy.

Sunday afternoon the phone rang and the nuns said they needed to talk to us. When we got there they told us, almost crying, that the priest had said we hadn't contributed enougn money so John could not go to the school.

Alice went crazy [and so did John}. She got in one of our cars and drove away screaming. I spent two hours trying to find her. Finally she drove in the driveway and almost drove through the front of the house. She have never done this!!! I was almost lost at what to do. In desparation I called the Assit. Supt. of School, who had no reaon to like me because we had been on the opposite sides of so many issues!.He was a Baptist!!!!!! but said in a calm voice: John tell Alice not to worry, give me three hours. How he did it I don't know but within TWO hours he called back with the perfect solution.

I should mention, and this makes me look bad three of my coach friends came by. They were so angry they wanted to get the priest and beat the hell out of him. Of course they did not go but did call him and curse him out in the vilest terms.

The priest was so filled with_____I don't think he knew what was going on.

I quit my political workings and Alice out or sheer hate did not go to mass for 18 months. BTW John was an honor student got a masters degree and then, as I have told you , died a cruel death at 36.

O yes we still see the priest at functions. Most people politely appauld when he is introduced. But two of us don't!!

We all know Matthew, Chapter 25. Assuming for a moment this was the story of the two men's life, who would beon the right and who on the left. The Baptist Supt., living in a jungle of heresy, completely devoid of the warm arms of Rome; or the priest--his conceptions immaculate, and embraced in the arms of mother church. I guess the Supt. on the right and the priest on the left. Of course I don't know for sure and no one does, but honor me with a guess?

losing my cool

I think some of you think I'm anti-catholic. Well I'm not. Alice has gotten in that position so I have to defend church. She thinks I been treated crappy, and she' a loving wife.3 year of hints, overtures, formal requests, generous with what money we have, rather expensive medals for scores of kids, attending catholic study groups etc. Well my friends I'm beginning to get a little peeved. Well I know what you're saying out there: just do what church says and they may let you in. Yes, this RCIA thing is big to me AND to the bishops. They agree with me but some partially educated priest just won't hear of it!!Talk about audacity!!

Listen I've endured 60 years of insults and acted like they wern't from devout catholics and pompous priests. So tomorrow I'm goin to talk about a few. If you're fair you'll agree I been most patient these 60 years. They've hurt me; my kids, my wife and I'm still to swammi to them!!Listen, no way! I'm reasonable; they're not.

Exceptions: B, Anna, Joe, Jeff, Caitilin {not a catholic} and probably left out a few. You are great; but you're not the church I know.

Some friends say tell them you're ill, they'll let you get by. I don't play that game. Still have my fire. BTW just writing this has got the adrenalin flowing so probably good for me. Seriously. Jack

Here we go. I'm not going to fancy up my questions--just hope you understand

One, do local dioceses feel any obligation to follow Bishop's Council on RCIA or , in my experience, to they just ignore the Bishops?

Two, who determines your period of 'probation'? What do you have to do to get off probation and become church member?

Three, since your probation runs from 1 year to infinity who makes this determination?

Four are individual priest and RCIA directors given the power to determine your "holiness" and whether you are worthy of being a catholic?

Five, are priest and RCIA directors expected to know anything about theology, or is that a sign of impudence on student should they ask 'problem' question leading to another ???years of probation

Six, Is not the way this program can be run a little similar to pledging Sigma Nu? Partial joke.

Seven, could a reasonable person regard this process as "crawling" to the church not walking?

Eight, with the apparently total power given to RCIA director to open or close the gates of heaven, is there any appeal from this authority.


I could go on. I really like our RCIA director { a Dominican nun} but I'm not sure I want to enter theoretical serfdom to join a church I thought was open to all.

Friends, I think you see what I'm saying. AAH the sin of pride. But something about casting first stone. Hi to all.

I realize these things i mention probably want wont happen, but the idea>>>>Jack





















e

The End of the Affair

My apolgies guys. Let's forget RCIA. If able I'll still post on occassion. It's really been fun, but we're apparently at a deadend. Thanks to each. Jack

B,Anna, Joe, Jeff, Caitlin anyone with any opinion.

Sometimes little things mean a lot. The friends I have in blogdom are,well,--the greatest. So I want you to forgive what you may think is petty and give the old man some advice.

One of the main reason I desire to be a RC is my family. As I have said they are all Catholic. Okay, you say, just become one. Not so fast my friends, as the TV football analyist says.

In the spirit of Vatican2 the RCIA process was established, to revive a very old tradition. I used to be able to find a good discussion of this on the internet, but now it's gone. Uhmmm. The gist of the article was that there should be a clear distinction between the un=baptised who had had no official church affiliation and those from other christian faiths. The article went on to say that an un do burden should not be placed on the latter.

Getting my nerve up, I sent a letter and a copy of an essay of mine that raised some religious issues as well as some questions about RCIA. I never got an answer but the nun who directs the RCIA program handed the material back to my wife with the comment:"This is too deep for me" I told this story on Joe's blog and got a reply: You can't expect a parish priest or RCIA director to answer this. Not Joe, but one of his commentators.

To continue with my boring story, I called the Bishop's office. The nice lady said go to a parish priest. I suggested the diocese might have a kind of in resident theologian who might handle my questions. She gave me a name. I called 4 times, he was never in and did not return my calls. I then called our local university that has a chair in catholic studies. I thought I'd be a bit more specific. So I said I wanted to discuss Fatima. The secretary said "There's nothing to discuss; it's been proven" Phoned bang down!!!

Next, ya, boring I know, I drove 25 miles to near town to talk to priest who I was assured was really 'with it'. He gave me 45 minutes[luncheon engagement]. Result
: Ten minutes on religion and 35 minutes on baseball. Still a lot of fun.

Last try. Three ladies who knew the situation said we know priests who will know how to handle this situation. But, of course that would put pressure on family at home church and school.

Just a final thought. Te RCIA director as the power to "fail" you in her course. Apparently she has a new set to the keys of the kingdom. And then the possible 3 years probation---I assume followed by Vatican CIA to see if your not 'naughty'.

Okay, what I'm saying is just too much. Even Alice is outraged!!

Possible solutions: 1. Go to 22 weeks of RCIA and keep my mouth shut. 2.Go to Rcia and ask questions like:How do I know the pope loves me?[joke}3.Go to other priests and insult families' priests.4. Forget it all.

I could go on, but maybe i've gotten the point over. BTW still get invitations to Rectory for dinners, which are great. Maybe I'm asking too much.

B, Joe,B, Joe, Anna Jeff--any friends left

I've read Newman on infallibility and read carefully the comments of blogs. Have not reallychanged my mind totally, but can go along. Newman: Certainly if I am obliged to bring religion into after dinner toasts, I shall drink to the pope if you please--still to conscience first and to the pope afterwards.

Thinking of Newman, I am not surprised, I guess, that his path toward sainhood will probably never reach a goal, while two portuguese young boys of very dubious credentials were 'given' sainthood by JP2. I think Fatima is a clear case of childhood fantasy if not outright deception. Best thing I've read in years was Ratzinger's analysis of the
fatima "miracle". I find these 'apparitions' and the alleged "miracles" very weak evidence. Certainly the 'evidence' is subject to empirical analysis and , I hope, is not part of the of some 'lower' decree of the magisterium.

I know the private revelation scheme, but what if I say JP2 was badly off base.

Could a person agree with what I say and still not be a heretic? May be LOL to you, but rather important practical question.

Responses please. Jack

i am certainly no philosopher or theologian. but i am troubled by the lack of precision when people talk of religion. what we like we take literally; we dont like we take as metaphor. for examples. catholics take the petrine commission literally, but most take the six day creation as metaphor. when we talk of baptism, baptists say only immersion since most scholars say that is how john baptized; but many other religions take this as open to different forms, i could go on but i think the point is clear. oh, be sure and add revelation!!

we say god the father. but certainly father does not mean a man physically. we say mary is the mother of god. ask a priest what that means and you will get pure analogy. we say jesus ascended to heaven, but is heaven a physical location. ask your pastor. we say the trinity is three person in one. how do we interpret person? and on and on.

i say these things as a commited catholic, but i think they are important. lanquage takes many forms and we should be alert to them.

now is the bible so clear that it has no interpretation. if so, thousands of scholars have wasted their lives.

and can we start with a definition and follow its exact consequences? if so calvin was right. if god is all knowing, not limited by time,and all power then predestination MUST follow. the arrogamce of pure reason!!!

now if the bible is subject to interpretation are not statements of the church the same? the statements of paul, mark, matthew, even jesus may be interpreted in different ways, but not council and papal decrees?. let me emphasize, biblical and church statements are most important, but are they so obvious they need no analysis, too me this stageres the mind!

most scholars today, catholic and otherwise, put great empahsis on the context, historical and otherwise, of biblical passages. does not the same apply to church doctrine?

is it allowed or worthwhile to look at infallible statements in their context. the two infallible decrees since 1870 are the immaculate assumption and the bodily assencion of mary. i believe they are "true" but not necessarily factual. both show, and rightly so i believe, the increasing understanding of the role of mary in our faith these dogmas are a way to affirm this. many protestants are coming to recognize the unique position of mary. After all we can speak mainly in analogy when we deal with spiritual truths, but analogy can be most useful.

finally i need to say that i do not accept the argument that church doctrines of an infallible nature are independent of of the reasoning laid out in the decree, and that only the conclusion is infallible. this would be very strange as it violates all human logic and reason and would devastate human communication.

i believe god has spoken to us through jesus. but with all human language it must be understood properly by the hearer. yes the bible is important, tradition is most important, church doctrines are important, but this does not mean that they bypass our need to think, to reason. i don't think that is god' plan. alice

to me, despite all the philosophical theological arguments there are really two great 'parties' in our church[RC] and i think history will show this. Group one: the church is not a democracy, but more a monarchy. Yes lay persons have their place but it is clearly secondary to to those who have special callings[the clergy]. What the clergy say is substantially of greater weight than the laity. Group two: Yes their are different 'offices' in the church, but the laity opinion is just as weighty as clerical pronouncements. in other words all members of the church stand on their behavior as christians, and no office elevates one to greater status than another.

now don't misunderstand me. take the pope for example. he is 'elected'[ a bit democratic i might say, shouldn't a finger come down from heaven and point out the best candidate?] i hope on the basis of his holiness, his learning, his kindness etc, therefore his views are most important, but because of these good traits his bad behavior drives him either further from god.

I really don't have much sympathy with protestants on theorogy, but i do on their actions. doesn't the old protestant sibolith of the priesthood of all believers have merit? we all stand equal before god---the pope and the guy 'under the bridge". oh, i know we catholics say we believe this, but do we practice it.

just an example, and i know anectotes are not evidence. During the height of the priest abuse scandal our church held a forum on the issue. the DA was there and others including our social justice director. when the latter made the point that abusers should be reported to the DA, the chancellor rose and propunded "you can't do this--remember these are priests!! by the way the social justice director was fired by the bishop and the priest was reprimanded!

i really haven't worded this well, but i tried . my moto: the church is not democracy, not a monarchy, but a meritocracy. alice.

let me also say, i am catholic and will never leave MY church.

RCIA

this is alice. just a brief personal note. those who see our comments on joe, b, mimi blogs don't know jack personally. let me say one of his best traits is his humour, no matter what he faces. he is one of the most popular persons at my church, although as you know he is not catholic. he's discused rcia with Joe and others and with people in our parish including the rcia director. several parishoners are quite upset that he must undergo extensive instruction and a probation period when they all know he is very familiar with catholicism. they have contacted other priest in our city who say they will wave the 'total package' as the u s bishops suggest. but jack does not want to upset our priests who, and i must say this, are afraid of jack. he contributes thousands of dollars every year to my parish, and we are certainly not rich. he went with me to a social justice meeting a month or two ago and , made only one comment about how he admired this work of the church, but was totally ignored and treated poorly by the priest. several members of the committee called to express their concern. i will not serve on any committee at my church, but will continue
to support it with attendance and money.

this is a partial transcript of a short talk he gave at a church dinner, the people loved it, including the rcia director. i have transcribed it as best i can, and hope it does not offend. it is to be taken as parody. Alice

OPENING REMARKS TO RCIA CLASS IN PETTYVILLE ALABAMA>

Good evening folks. My name is Glamorene Stubbs your RCIA teacher. Some of you know me as Mrs. Wallow, Mrs. Potts as well as Mrs. Stubbs for the time being. I have 3 kids. One by each husband, you might think. But I have only been married once. The Church in its wisdom has told me that my first two marriages were not real, just play like marriages. Where that leaves my kids, I'm not sure, but whatever.

But let's get started.You have been divided into three groups. Now let me say I'm not going to use fancy Eastern terms. Too confusing. I want you to understand so where i feel I should I'll use common folk language. Now the three groups. To my left the heretics--see every day words-- Methodist, Lutherans, Baptists who are right, say, 5 per cent of the time, max. On my right the pagans. They are never right, and should consider themselves lucky I'm going to save them from hell. The third group: Father Quiverful and me. Obviously we are almost always right, and---listen to this--- when I sit in this chair I am ALWAYS right!! I' m not completely sure why, but it has something to do with ex catheder. Something about a church leader can never make a mistake when he sits in a chair. Well something like that!

We will meet about 30 times. At the end I will give you a grade. A pass-fail system. IfI say you pass, and you serve a year of probation, you are on your way to heaven. BUT, if you fail, you will be tied up, put in Homer's pick-up, and droped on the lawn of the local Assembly of God church. Ha, Ha, just a joke.

I will do most of the teaching, but we will have 2 or 3 guest speakers, For example, on chastity as a great virtue, Sister Virginius will speak on that kind of naughty subject, As some of you know, she is 85 years old and has never had a DATE. So she knows what she's talking about!

Our rhythm speaker---the Eastern elite, ha, ha, call it NFP---I don't know what that stands for--something like no fun petting, will be Mr. and Mrs.Tired, and as a special treat this year they will bring their 16 children. This couple works six jobs between them, and we are really lucky they can get off the late shift at the pancake house to be with us. Another interesting point; there oldest son was --hold on--was Gay , a fancy Eastern term---Hilary Clinton uses it. But we're just real folks so feel free to call Eusebius, a reformed Queer. He went to some group called Courage or carnage, whatever, and was cured. We were all thrilled when he came back and sexually assaulted the cheerleader next door. PRAISE THE LORD!!! Incidentally before he was 'changed' he planned to be a priest.

And probably our BEST guest of the year. You all saw the coronation of our new Pope{ By the way, wern't those costumes simply OUT OF THIS WORLD--makes protestant preachers look downright shabby} Well you heard the TV people talking about the excersizer of Rome. You know the one that makes you throw up evil spirits and causes you to float in the air. Okay, if you don't believe me just watch the movie!!. Well father and I think we can get one to come here!! When not exercising--I think that's the word--he's been working as a greeter down at Wal-Mart. Where your old clothes that night a case you get thrown up on by the worst person here, and when they float to the ceiling don't stare. You may enjoy it but the floatee certainly won't!!

Okay, let's assume you pass. Final test will be the merits of obedience--you know, poverty, chastity, obedience. Hilary Clinton is supposed to pass through here.
We will protest, of course. You will be ask to carry a sign saying "Hilary Clinton kills Babies" or, if you don't like name calling,"All Democrats Kill Babies" or for you timid ones "Fry All Baby Killers".

The grauation ceremony will be held at the bishop's palace. Yow, I know he prefers house instead of palace, but it sure beats the Methodist parsonage. You can give him a small gift and, if you desire, kiss his ring. Don't worry about germs. Two deacons will be there to wipe his ring with clorox after each kiss. Then he will present you with a small gift in recognition of your not being sent to hell. Last year his gift was a coupon worth 15 per cent off on his summer tour:The Holy Places of Las Vegas.

One last thing. You are free, of course, to talk to Father Quiverful. Just one word of caution. Don't call or visit him on Tuesday or Thursday--those are his golf days. And no calls to the rectory after 7 p.m. Father is a greatLaw and Order fan. Any Questions? Oh, when you leave, heretics by the side door, and pagans through the kitchen door.






my catholic friends enjoyed jack' little routine and our rcia director wants a copy. i didn't get it all transcribed[the recording was fuzzy] but still working on it. and you think catholics can't laugh!!! Alice