Here we go. I'm not going to fancy up my questions--just hope you understand
One, do local dioceses feel any obligation to follow Bishop's Council on RCIA or , in my experience, to they just ignore the Bishops?
Two, who determines your period of 'probation'? What do you have to do to get off probation and become church member?
Three, since your probation runs from 1 year to infinity who makes this determination?
Four are individual priest and RCIA directors given the power to determine your "holiness" and whether you are worthy of being a catholic?
Five, are priest and RCIA directors expected to know anything about theology, or is that a sign of impudence on student should they ask 'problem' question leading to another ???years of probation
Six, Is not the way this program can be run a little similar to pledging Sigma Nu? Partial joke.
Seven, could a reasonable person regard this process as "crawling" to the church not walking?
Eight, with the apparently total power given to RCIA director to open or close the gates of heaven, is there any appeal from this authority.
I could go on. I really like our RCIA director { a Dominican nun} but I'm not sure I want to enter theoretical serfdom to join a church I thought was open to all.
Friends, I think you see what I'm saying. AAH the sin of pride. But something about casting first stone. Hi to all.
I realize these things i mention probably want wont happen, but the idea>>>>Jack
e
Jack,
ReplyDeletePlease forgive me if this sounds impertinent, but all of these things you are concerned about seem entirely foreign to me in my own experience as a Catholic, and quite honestly, to the experiences of those I've seen enter the Catholic Church through RCIA. I don't mind telling you that this business about "having to crawl" is even a little bit insulting.
In don't think most programs look to the bishop for much, other than to follow guidelines that have long since been established by their own particular archdiocese. As for the rest of your questions, frankly, I personally can't answer them because I don't recognize anything in them that's familiar to me.
If you are really drawn towards Catholicism, it would seem to me that the "process" itself wouldn't be a stumbling block. If this is something you really feel drawn to do, this would be piddling stuff to endure.
I'd be honored, thilled, and would love to have you on board with us, but do what your consicence really dicates. If your conscience tells you to stay Anglican, I say by all means, stay Anglican. Don't use the rubrics of RCIA as an excuse. If you really want to be Catholic, on the other hand, I don't see how the rubrics of RCIA could ever stop you. By all means, don't do this to please someone else. That would be the wrong reason... And by all means, if you want to do it, don't let Fatima and time-wasting commentaries on the "Third Secret" stop you. That would be entirely the wrong reason too.
With high regards,
Jeff
Jeff, thanks for time taken to 'comment'. But I do think my questions are important. The council of catholic bishops{not exact title} recognize this problem by clearly stating the process should not be abused by causing "undo" burden to converts from other religions. Apparently for financial reasons, I guess, at least my diocese only pays lip service to their recommendations.
ReplyDeleteI would not expect you to deal with these 'petty' questions, but someone should it seems to me.
But your time and interest are greatly appreciated . Please keep in contact if you have time. Thanks. Jack
Jeff, just a small response. I am a bit surprised you do not see the possible humiliation in the RCIA process. Certainly you are aware of
ReplyDeletewiseman's treatment of Newman. Of course I would not be worthy of carrying Newman's shoes, but possibly Wiseman's {joke possibly}. Many things are worthy of great sacrifice but this system is shockinly oppen to abuse and personal animosity. I don't think it would happen, but have examples of it being abused. Worked out but still insulting. Do you see NO merit in my qualms? Still your friend, I hope. Jack
John,
ReplyDeleteDon't worry, my friendship wouldn't be predicated on whether you do this or not.
No, I honestly don't know what the big deal is, if you really want to do this. I had to go through a confirmation period after about 10 years of Catholic School. I didn't find it to be beneath me, and neither should you. In fact, they might be happy to have someone who has as much theological background as you.
I've never heard of anyone "flunking" RCIA, or being put on probation. My friend Crystal, who frequently posts on my blog, said she slept through much of RCIA. In fact, maybe there should be more rigor than there is...
It's like a lot of things. You get out of it what you put into it.
It isn't like the 1940s, when mixed couples had to get married in the rectory, or had to stay on the other side of the altar rail. I think a lot of what you are hesitant about stems more from your history with in-laws than it has to do with the current RCIA process.
I already took a crack at the first question.
Two, who determines your period of 'probation'? What do you have to do to get off probation and become church member?
Never heard of anyone actually being placed on probation, so I don't think you should lose any sleep over it. The program usually lasts about a year, doesn't it? The catechumens are always welcomed by the full community during the Easter Triduum.
Three, since your probation runs from 1 year to infinity who makes this determination?
Like I said, The catechumens are always welcomed by the full community during the Easter Triduum.
Four are individual priest and RCIA directors given the power to determine your "holiness" and whether you are worthy of being a catholic?
Who is telling you that "holiness" is a prerequisite to being brought into the Church? It's a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. Let God judge who is holy. We are all on the journey towards sanctification.
Five, are priest and RCIA directors expected to know anything about theology, or is that a sign of impudence on student should they ask 'problem' question leading to another ???years of probation
I believe they all study theology, don't they? I think studying theology is still a requirement for ordination.
Impudence might cause friction between you and the priest (or whoever the director is). I don't think you'll be kicked out for it, but they may ask you if you are really sure you want to do this.
Six, Is not the way this program can be run a little similar to pledging Sigma Nu? Partial joke.
No.
And I was in a fraternity.
The only thing that makes me angrier than our pig-headed clerics is crude anti-Catholicism.
Seven, could a reasonable person regard this process as "crawling" to the church not walking?
No, but I wasn't raised Protestant either, so maybe I need to learn to be more sensitive.
Eight, with the apparently total power given to RCIA director to open or close the gates of heaven, is there any appeal from this authority.
They have no such power, so you need no such appeal.
Jeff, you are a saint!!Pardon me for "crude" joke; I thought there was a modicum of truth there.
ReplyDeleteBut Jeff RCIA clearly talks of period of probation to be determined by whom I am not sure. One thing I saw said possibly 5 years, or as long as necessary.
Secret story. Don't tell anyone!!!A good friend of Alice and Me had a daughter who married a protestant who 'took' RCIA. For some reason Sister C.... told our friend she might have him repeat course. Our friend was badly miffed and said:"Listen Sister you got one in the net don't blow it." Crude yes, but effective. Our friend was 82!!
Point is Sister thought she had that power. And "probation."??
Listen, I love sister. She faithfully attends concerts I sponser {annonymously} at church.
But since my letter refered to earlier I have to chase her to speak at after mass coffees.
Don't worry I'm not a smart ass and would rush to her aid if she got hostile question at RCIA.
Thanks again for taking your time. You are very kind! Jack
Tiresome old Jack here. "candidates" should never be called "catechumen" U S Bishops. Nor should they be treated as such. U S BISHOPS. Can not take sacrement but need not leave service. Jack. This really is a basic question to me. No trouble with "candidate" status. Jack
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteAccording to this wikipedia article, a Catechumen is an unbaptized person seeking admission to the church; as you are (I assume) baptized, you would be a Candidate.
I don't really know all the answers to your questions. I'm not very experienced with RCIA. This website makes it sound like any "probation" is mostly up to the candidate himself.
RCIA directors do not determine your holiness. Jeff said it well when he said the Church is a hospital for sinners. And why would anyone be worthy of being Catholic, or any Christian denomination? We're all miserable slugs being made into glorious butterflies by God. Worth has nothing to do with it.
The RCIA director doesn't hold the keys to the kingdom of God. If they really do try to kick you out for impudence, or something like that, go talk to the parish priest(s). He, if no one else, has authority over the RCIA director, whether or not he chooses to exercise it. You will also have the option of going to another priest at another parish, I suppose; I don't know how willing they would be to take someone who had had issues with someone else's RCIA, but it would be worth a try.
Now let me try to deal with your questions 6 and 7. But not directly. Let me quote something which might give you an alternative view of what RCIA has to offer. This is from a book called Creating Small Church Communities by Art Baranowski.
But the RCIA is much more than an initiation process for that small group that enters the church at the Easter Vigil. It provides a mirror for seeing clearly who we are as the church. For the way we bring newcomers into the church says a great deal about what being the church means to the rest of us. ... It creates a small-group setting where trust can build; invites participants to get in touch with their own faith stories ("How has God been active in my life and how have I responded over the years?"); encourages participants to share their faith stories with each other, challenges participants to compare their personal faith stories to that of the church; provides an experience of the care, interest, prayer and support from the people of the church during the RCIA journey.
Each person's pace is respected; no one is ever rushed. The formation is not only intellectual (learning the beliefs of Catholics), but the formation involves the total person's history and experience and also involves personal warm, sharing relationships with a few members of the church. The community''s story in Scripture and Tradition gives a focus of meaning to the individual's experience. In other words, this new rite, now mandated by the U.S. bishops as the way all parishes are to welcome new members into the church, gets back to the basics of becoming a Catholic Christian and being a Catholic Christian.
The book goes on to talk about how RCIA makes a promise of "church" that is frequently not lived out in parish realities - after RCIA is over, many can get "lost" in the parish. But perhaps this vision of what RCIA is, and what it is for, can help inspire you.
Anna, we're closing in. Found article on internet by Priest that is entitled "Save the Candidates".
ReplyDelete"They don't deserve what they are enduring"
'To treat them as catechumen is an insult to their previous faith' Not sure of exact quote, but this is substance.
Points out significant differences between candidates and Catechumen.
Exactly what I had found before but could not find now.
Apparent reason is money. Just lump them all together.
Apparently I'm not the only one who feels as I do.
The article was dated 1998, so maybe things have changed.
Anna, a couple of my blog friends keep refering to me as possibly "impudent". Gads!! I may be a lot of things but NOT impudent!!
Again thanks for your concern. It is MUCH appreciated!!! Jack
Thinking back I think our RCIA director, as nice as she is, did not want to recognize difference I mention above. I ask these specific questions and she did not respond. Still think she' fine lady.
Jack,
ReplyDeleteThe link that I gave in my last post (not the wikipedia one), has the following to say about candidates:
It is important to note that those who fall into the third category above (candidates for full communion) do not always need to take part in the full process. Especially if they have been actively living the Christian life in another denomination, they are likely in need of very little catechesis and may be welcomed into the Church on any Sunday after a short period of preparation. According to the National Statutes for the Catechumenate, "Those baptized persons who have lived as Christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition and a degree of probation within the Catholic community should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the catechumenate."
You've never struck me as impudent. You do, however, strike me as that kind of intellectual who demands rigorous evidence before being convinced. Some people might confuse the two; some people definitely have difficulty dealing the latter.
Maybe ask to have a sit-down conversation with the RCIA lady in which you make it clear that you are concerned about being confused for a Catechumen and being forced to go through a lengthy process without it being needed. Bring a copy of the quote from the National Statutes, if you like. But it would probably help if you could make it clear that you're not just trying to get out of the work of RCIA, that you're committed to active participation in parish life, or something like that. (Maybe remind her of the concerts?)
Anna, you are the Ann Landers of catholicism. Seriously, they do need to have a site that will deal with less than momumental issues. I did find one a couple of years ago but it was very, very conservative. The priest answered to my question that he thought I shouldn't be ask for the full program but he couldn't do anything about it. Thanks again. Jack. By the way I think Ann Landers is dead, so I may have blown first sentence.
ReplyDeleteDear Jack,
ReplyDeleteI hope that you are doing well--you are in my prayers. I really cannot understand the WHY of your wanting to do this, ie. go to RCIA and join the Catholic church. I can't tell if you give it greater credence than the Anglican church--but if you don't think it is somehow more right, then why do it? I am not intending any criticism--I simply don't follow what you are doing. Surely Alice and your children and grandchildren do not regard you as "lost." Will doing this really bring you closer to them, and more importantly, to Christ? I am puzzled...truly, honestly puzzled. I hope that you can find the answers you seek. You are a wonderful and remarkable person, and ought never to have to "crawl in" anywhere; I pray that you never do.
Love,
Caitilin
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your patience as well. Thanks to all here for the distinction between candidate and catechumen, as well. I beg your pardon. Words often have a loaded meaning beyond their actual meaning. The word "probation" for example, because of its association in the public imagination with the criminal justice system, may have a more negative connotation than the word is actually meant to convey.
It's hard to please everyone. Some find the idea of this process demeaning. I imagine that if it didn't exist, however, some would complain, "Why does the Church just bring people in willy-nilly with no preparation and no idea of what to expect? Why didn't they give people an idea of what they were really getting into, and why didn't they give people a chance to learn and discern if this is what they really want to go through with?"
You wrote of your friend:
good friend of Alice and Me had a daughter who married a protestant who 'took' RCIA. For some reason Sister C.... told our friend she might have him repeat course. Our friend was badly miffed and said:"Listen Sister you got one in the net don't blow it." Crude yes, but effective. Our friend was 82!!
Any idea why this occurred, or what the issue was about?
It's not like the Catholic Church is a secret society, like a fraternity. :-) Its positions and its teachings are no great mystery. Anybody who wants to take the time to pick up a catechism or read some history can get the basics on doctrine down prtty easily if they want to. I don't know much about the impudence factor, but I don't see what the point of it would be if someone was drawn towards Catholicism and wanted to convert to it. The only time I saw any trace of it was when I got the sense that someone was doing this at the urging and insistence of someone else, as in a husband being converted becasue his wife had pressured him and insisted upon it.
Just a note on gadflies... Sometimes they are very useful, at other times they can just be a pain in the neck. I don't know if the position of an RCIA Director is a paid position or not. I know a lot of church positions are volunteer positions. I know that in my own work life, putting up with the challenges and objections of a gadfly is part of the job. When I'm doing volunteer work, I don't necessarily have the same patience in dealing with it, and I'm wondering if the same is true of RCIA volunteers.
Jeff, thank you for responding. I wish some of you could find the article "Save the Candidate". But I'm so clumsy on computer I don't know how to tell you to find it. But it expresses my opinion and others that to those who come from other faiths the RCIA process can be enbarassing. To be ask to leave the church during the service, for example, when it is not required of candidates apparently, before 1000 eyes is not fun. I've heard this from others. And it applies to me. I sincerely believe the church would have more converts if it 'played' up the difference between candidate and cathecumen.
ReplyDeleteAs I have said before, the RCIA director at our church is a full time nun. This is her only job. Can you see why she doesn't like questions about different approaches to RCIA? I would to! Looking back on the letter I sent her with the article, I think she was offended by my suggestion made by the US Catholic Bishops that candidates should not be submitted to undo pressure. Again I like Sister C.....but this is her job. The only theological question I ask that could have offended her was whether infallible statement, like the Bible, are open to interpretation. I think she believes they are so I assume job security was involved, as well it should I guess.
BTW my wife puts no pressure on me to be catholic. But I must admit my grandsons, age 9 and 4, do ask "Why doesn't bopaw {that's what they call me} go to our church?"
Incidentally, since I'm letting it all hang out, my wife was severely sexually abused as a youngster. Not by a priest but by a devout catholic, and the church did nothing. This has made me a little reluctant at times.
Maybe when all this is over I'll write it all up and call it "Why I am or am not a catholic". Thanks for hanging with me.BTW I don't know the details of the repeat RCIA. I'll try to find out. Again thanks for your interest. Jack
Caitilin. I understand fully what you are saying. But need to marshall my thoughts. I value your comments very highly. Jack
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteI think this must be the Saving the Candidates article you are talking about.
He says,
Candidates are not catechumens, and they deserve a little respect.
Huh? Don't catechumens deserve respect? What is he getting at? Is he saying, don't put candidates through all of these rituals that those unbaptized people have to go through?
Suppose they streamline it for candidates? How are the catechumens supposed to feel? Will someone write an article called "Save the Catechumens"?
Are you (and the auther) saying that people of Protestant background just aren't being treated with enough respect? It smacks too much of Catholic triumphalism? There are apocryphal stories to be found anywhere, I guess. Things can be spotty and irregular in their application. All I can tell you is that the RCIA Program at my parish is set up to make the candidates and the catechumens as comfortable as possible, with no undue demands or pressures put upon them.
I don't know. Sorry to be so obtuse, but I'm just not getting it... I'll back off, you are certainly going through enough in your life right now. You don't need any flack from me.
Glad for your friendship, and I wish you well and all of God's grace and blessings in your discernment on this issue.
Jeff, You aren't giving me "flack", Just hardy discussion, that I've live with, thanks heavens, for all my life.
ReplyDeleteQuestions:
Why was this put in the rite{the difference between candidate and catechumen}. Were the Bishops or whoever did it on a high?
{Let me joke Jeff}
If you came to my church and half way through the service we ask you to leave would you not feel maybe just a tiny, tiny bit embarassed?
Could you possibly have a tiny, tiny bit of anti "protestant" sentiment in your comment?
If you were teaching school and half your class was on third grade level and half on 4th grade level would yu put them in one class and teach them the same?
I loved your 'clean up your own vomit' remark. I LOL[just learned that}. You don't feel in any way that people might think "Poor Jack, and Anglican for 70 years and all were asking him to do is admit his error and clean up his own v....?
I thought the Church reconized me as a christian though not in full communion with Rome. Is my religion just a parody of true christianity?
Anna suggested I talk with RCIA director and see what see says. What practical steps and how should I{or you} feel if she said "Sorry, Jack. Thats the way we do it here. There's nothing I can do."
Please don't take my comments as impertinent or impudent. They may seem so to you, but are not to me.
I am having a hard time with your "I just don't get". I think you do and maybe didn't word that exactly as precise as is your custom.
Yes I'm having bad time, but am remarkedly "up." We're all different, and Alice is, and has the right to be a bit "down"
Just reponding makes we think more of you. Of course, I'm a "bad boy", but you and others make me feel much better. Jack
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteHaha. You sure ask a lot of questions while leaving quite a few of mine unanswered. :-)
Why was this put in the rite{the difference between candidate and catechumen}. Were the Bishops or whoever did it on a high?
{Let me joke Jeff}
:-) Actually, isn't that a sign of respect for candidates? The fact that we consider your Baptism in another faith tradition a valid Baptism that cannot and must not be repeated?
If you came to my church and half way through the service we ask you to leave would you not feel maybe just a tiny, tiny bit embarassed?
Isn't that part called "Breaking Open the Word"? Don't you "leave" with your sponsors as well? Actually, you wouldn't really leave, right? You'd go with your sponsors and your director to reflect upon the meaning of the scriptures, which, coming from a Protestant background, I'd think would be preferable to sitting in the pews, doing nothing, and not participating in Communion for all to see... See, I think this is another instance where we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.
We look forward to the day of full communion with other Churches, and a shared Eucharist, but we aren't quite there yet.
Could you possibly have a tiny, tiny bit of anti "protestant" sentiment in your comment?
Sure. I've got issues with Protestantism, I admit it. I've been hurt quite a few times by Protestants in my life, but it's not important. Nothing close to the sexual abuse you've seen, so it's insignificant in the scheme of things.
If you were teaching school and half your class was on third grade level and half on 4th grade level would yu put them in one class and teach them the same?
No, but in way, you are mixing apples and oranges. A person may be baptized and know not a scintilla about their own faith tradition or about Catholicism. Another person might be unbaptized and know a great deal. I don't care for the value judgement implied by it either, as if the unbatized person is inferior somehow.
I loved your 'clean up your own vomit' remark. I LOL[just learned that}. You don't feel in any way that people might think "Poor Jack, and Anglican for 70 years and all were asking him to do is admit his error and clean up his own v....?
Yes, I suppose you are right. Like I said, this might be spotty in its application. It's human beings putting all of this into effect. We all have faults and weaknesses. Some RCIA Directors might surely be far better than this than others. Part of the reason I don't "get it", is because I hadn't seen these types of difficulties in my own parish. I'm sure they do happen elsewhere, as you describe.
I thought the Church recognized me as a christian though not in full communion with Rome. Is my religion just a parody of true christianity?
No, we have made a lot of progress in this direction, although the present Pope worries me a bit in this regard, being the principal crafter of Dominus Iesus , which left a lot of Anglicans feeling insulted, plus others besides.
On the other hand, I'm quite disappointed with the efforts by Protestants in our direction as far as ecumenism goes. They just sem to move further and further away.
My impression: You can tell me if it's accurate or not, although a lot of pople don't necessarily consider Anglicanism to be Protestantism, strictly speaking - My impression is that the vast majority of serious Protestants (those who study their tradition and attend church services every week) do not consider Catholicism to be a form of Christianity. Do you agree?
Anna suggested I talk with RCIA director and see what see says. What practical steps and how should I{or you} feel if she said "Sorry, Jack. Thats the way we do it here. There's nothing I can do."
I think you would need to analyze how much you want to do this, and what are your reasons for wanting to do it. You've been asked the reason why by a few people, but the answers have been vague. I appreciate and empathize with your concern over how your grandchildren feel, but I don't think that would be sufficient in and of itself.
Please don't take my comments as impertinent or impudent. They may seem so to you, but are not to me.
I understand.
I am having a hard time with your "I just don't get". I think you do and maybe didn't word that exactly as precise as is your custom.
I'm trying to be empathetic and thorough this time. :-)
Yes I'm having bad time, but am remarkedly "up." We're all different, and Alice is, and has the right to be a bit "down"
That's good. I hope Alice isn't feeling down over this conversation. I hope it doesn't make her feel tense. It shouldn't.
Just reponding makes we think more of you. Of course, I'm a "bad boy", but you and others make me feel much better. Jack
"Im just a bad boy, long, long way from home...." I like the song. :-)
Wow, what a conversation. It is really great to see this sort of discussion on what is often a trite and silly blogosopher full of hubris and rambling nonsense (myselg included in that). A real and intelligent conversation... sigh... i feel gladdened to have gotten to know you both.
ReplyDeleteJack,
For what its worth I am an Anglican convert. Obviously I am still challenged by the more conservative elements of catholicism but the RCC is still 'home' to me, and 8 years later the Episcopal service simply feels inauthentic and pretend.
That being said, RCIA was tough. Not because I was pulled aside during mass or whatever, I didn't care about any of that stuff. For me it was just silly because I had already read and studied so much and i was in RCIA with a bunch of 10 year olds. And a lot of the teaching was really, really basic and way below my intellectual level. But then, maybe that is good for intellectuals to be reminded that half of their hand wringing and obsessing is just vain hubris anyway.
We might have some things in common that way. I think sometimes you have to stop trying to think your way around a decision and feel your way around it instead, EQ over IQ, discernment rather than ascertaining or debating. Don't know if that helps.
Anyway, I am tickled with Rome's new driving rules. I've been whining that Rome cares more about masturbation than aggressive driving, and now, obviously I can rest assured that the church was listening to me all along. ;-)
Oops there I go rambling again. Probably not helpful. Ah well. What I would have done to have Jeff and Talmida for RCIA....
Jeff, not quite sure what I haven't answered? But take a minute and let me have the ones you think I'm avoiding.
ReplyDeleteI think Anglicans and protestant think catholice are christians, but not in full communion with god. Kind of works both ways. I think any protestant who thinks that is an idiot.
The third and fourth graders in the same class? Common sense, as an effort to individualize as much as possible. Generally accepted pedagogy it seems to most.
No Alice is not at all upset by this discussion. But some of her friends are. One calls lead priest "Father Dumb". His name rhymes with dumb. Nice guy. Just raised 10 million to improve early chilhood ed. program at church. Again, nice guy, entered seminary at 12, worked on wall street. Not exactly 'fuzzy' warm.
I know you don't like 'examples'. I recognize anecdotes are not evidence. But to me embarassing example, nevertheless. About 3 years ago when I really got serious about change told second in charge priest after mass, I was a great fan of Newman. "Who?" he said. " You know the Anglican convert in England. The one 'up' for sainthood" "Ya" he said. "seems like I heard someone mention his name in seminary". I'm kind of 'tough' in some ways, but that one stung me.
B, glad you enjoy our exchange. I think Jeff is pulling his hair out over my wabling. See you on your site. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteActually, when my sons were in public school, they doubled up classes quite often. In their particular case, I can't remember if it was a 2nd/3rd split or a 3rd/4th split. I believe the idea was to have the older kids model, mentor, and assist the younger ones. Interesting idea, and it probably applies better to RCIA than it does to elementary school.
Here are some questions (and propositions) I've been waiting for you to answer:
Who is telling you that "holiness" is a prerequisite to being brought into the Church?
good friend of Alice and Me had a daughter who married a protestant who 'took' RCIA. For some reason Sister C.... told our friend she might have him repeat course. Our friend was badly miffed and said:"Listen Sister you got one in the net don't blow it." Crude yes, but effective. Our friend was 82!!
Any idea why this occurred, or what the issue was about?
What did you think of the following?
Some find the idea of this process demeaning. I imagine that if it didn't exist, however, some would complain, "Why does the Church just bring people in willy-nilly with no preparation and no idea of what to expect? Why didn't they give people an idea of what they were really getting into, and why didn't they give people a chance to learn and discern if this is what they really want to go through with?"
Don't catechumens deserve respect?
Suppose they streamline it for candidates? How are the catechumens supposed to feel? Will someone write an article called "Save the Catechumens"?
Why was this put in the rite{the difference between candidate and catechumen}. Were the Bishops or whoever did it on a high?
:-) Actually, isn't that a sign of respect for candidates? The fact that we consider your Baptism in another faith tradition a valid Baptism that cannot and must not be repeated?
If you came to my church and half way through the service we ask you to leave would you not feel maybe just a tiny, tiny bit embarassed?
Isn't that part called "Breaking Open the Word"? Don't you "leave" with your sponsors as well? Actually, you wouldn't really leave, right? You'd go with your sponsors and your director to reflect upon the meaning of the scriptures, which, coming from a Protestant background, I'd think would be preferable to sitting in the pews, doing nothing, and not participating in Communion for all to see...
And most important at all, what draws you towards Catholicism, if there is anything left at all at this point? :-)
Jack, don't get me wrong, there is plenty that the Catholic Church can be criticized for, but how they run the RCIA program is IMHO one of the least of the matters to get exercised about. Can it be done better? Sure, but in most cases, it has been designed and implemented by people of good will who are doing the best they can in a time that is very difficult for us. Please try to be more charitable towards them. I think you put your finger on it a bit yourself. Ahhh, pride. Yes, I think there is a bit of that in play.
BTW, doing RCIA isn't a nun's "job". A nun has a vocation, and has pledged to live her life in obedience to her superiors and consecration to God, but that doesn't mean that she doesn't often get stuck in roles that are ill-suited for them from time to time. Ask any one of them to tell you about that confidentially. You'll get an earful.
Regards,
Jeff
Ah, Jeff, thanks again. Let me try to answer.
ReplyDeleteHaving been president of a 40,000 member teachers union I think I can say the combination of grade levels is done , in my experience, only out of necessity. The Ideal situation would be to have even more differeniation. Treating all kids the same in intellectual achievement is considered the worst situation possible.In fact as you surely recognize the whole grade level system is designed to avoid exactly what the RCIA system of 'throw them all together' seems to think is ideal.I think the Bishops or whoever recognize this would not want you in vacation bible school. [Joke}
The "holliness" situation. Wrong word probably, but what is the 1 to infinity probation deal. What are they checking and who's doing the checking?
The friend deal. Very knowlegable amd very active Methodist who, because of necessary business activity missed 5 of 22 sessions. Ah, exactly what bishops are saying, I think.
Of course, the catechumen deserve respect. But so do the candidates. It seems to me that the whole point is not to place one above the other but to recognize different needs.Remember Aristotle: The equality of unequals is inequality. Not talking about anything here but knowledge of christianity. Assume ,politically incorrect as it sounds, if you and a Hindu were in same class, would you not interfere with Hindu by asking questions about papal encyclicals and would he not interfer with you by making you feel silly asking more 'technical questions?
Incidentally when you talk of candidates program being unfair to catechumen because of 'streamlining' are you admitting RCIA is a 'burden? Why do bishops say it should be done with as little burden as possible.{Not exact quote}.
Now, key question. Why do I consider being a catholic? Well, family is a factor, and I think justifiably so. Certainly I would not go Christian Science even if my gransmother was Mary Baker Eddy. I find catholic social action both admirable and courageous in most cases{Some exceptions as B notes.}Church, to quote More, must be praised for saving the doctrine of the incarnation.Newman, who will never be saint--too rational. Despite Aquinas as 'official doctor of church' Newman actually thought favorably of Hume. RC's represent more diverssity, in all ways, than any other church.People like you, b the hindu and...and me ect. Could go on if you want.
But another question. Why am I not a catholic. I'm human as we all are, of course. Say your son is interested in Brown University. You go visit. Admittance counselor is 30 minutes late. Points out he has only 15 minutes to talk. Tells you they have thousands of applications.Points out that while your son is honor graduate he will need to be placed with less talented students because it saves money; adds that being placed with less skilled students will benefit those students; ask your son to state with precision why he wants to go to Brown; the fact that you and other members of your family went there is really of no importance,points out difficiencies of other school.Tells you his admittance essay couldn't be read--too arcane. Might you just possibly feel a little squeamish?? You would because your human, even though you think Brown is best fit.
Well I tried. Some pride there. You're damn right. Please don't tell probation officer I have at least one deadly sin. He might extend my probation another 5 years!! Bad joke, but couldn't resist. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteAnna, you are the Ann Landers of catholicism.
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? :)
On the teaching thing:
I'm part of a group, through my parish, that meets every Tuesday night. Each week we read a chapter of the new United States Catholic Catechism for Adults (USCCA), and discuss it together. The given, ostensible reason for the group's existence is catechesis – to learn what the Church teaches. Our group is very diverse: we range in knowledge from an older guy who teaches RCIA and knows almost everything there is to know about Church teaching to the RCIA catechumen who is still learning the basics.
Now, I know a lot about Church teaching. In the 9 or 10 or so chapters that we've covered, I've maybe read one sentence that said something that was actually new to me. (Well, other than the saint's stories that begin the chapter – I hadn't heard of all of them). I don't go there for “head knowledge”. I go there because it helps me live out my faith better. You might think that since I'm at a “higher grade” level than the RCIA catechumen, that he has nothing to offer me, nothing to teach me; but you'd be wrong. He has an enthusiasm that is inspiring, and an outlook and perspective that no one can duplicate. I would be the poorer if I had never heard his testimony, if he didn't participate in this Catechism class. The same is true of everyone else there.
When you look at RCIA, you are focused on the transmission of facts, or even truths, about Church teaching. You are focused on “head knowledge”. And in that context, it makes sense to want to separate everyone out by degrees of knowledge, as much as possible. But if you look at it this way, you will miss out on what RCIA really has to offer – the experience of community, of church. Given how difficult it can be to find that experience after RCIA is over, I encourage you to embrace it while you have the chance. And in a community, equality of knowledge is not a factor; everyone gives, everyone receives, each according to their own strengths and weaknesses. Everyone has something to offer, and everyone has something to learn. Making Jesus your Lord, in charge of all aspects of your life, is more important than a full understanding of doctrine. And every person, even a Hindu, can play a role in helping you to make that idea a reality.
I talked with the RCIA teacher at my parish last night about the gist of your questions, and he read some of your blog. He said the following:
Jack is definitely seeking the Lord, even though he comes across as a “hard case”. I do not believe that this is the case at all.
This is definitely my impression, too. And B got at this, too; your heart wants this, but your head is having trouble wrapping itself around everything. The first step might be to simply recognize joining the Catholic Church as your heart's desire and think of this as what the Holy Spirit is calling you to do right now. Then any potential problems with RCIA become something that God has to deal with; you just have to show up and do your part. And until you talk to the RCIA lady and/or go through Inquiry, then your “head” questions may be a lot of worrying for nothing.
The RCIA teacher at my parish also said that the questions you have about the process should all be answered during the Inquiry phase – the initial phase, with no commitment required, very informal and friendly. (They do Inquiry for 6-7 weeks). At the end of that is a time for discerning whether to formally enter the RCIA process or not. He says:
The next decision [after determining that they are a Candidate] is whether they have received any catechesis during their life. If a person has been a regular church member and has had catechesis, then they are on a much shorter path for entry to the Church. In this case, entry into the Catholic Church is not limited to the Easter Vigil. This path should address two areas for full entrance into the Catholic Church. They should be up to speed (basic knowledge) about the Catholic Church; and even more important, truly in LOVE with Jesus. When these two are in evidence, entry into the Church can occur at any time during the Church year.
About feeling embarrassed:
If you came to my church and half way through the service we ask you to leave would you not feel maybe just a tiny, tiny bit embarassed?
Honestly, I probably would feel at least awkward and a little embarrassed. But I would try not to focus on that. Embarrassment is not an entirely useful emotion. It comes about primarily from being worried about what other people think of us. I think the more confident and secure we are in God's love for us, the less we feel the need to try to maintain a dignified image of ourselves. (SO much easier to say than do, by the way!) Christ's death on the cross, for example, was the opposite of dignified.
In the end, maybe this is a long way of saying stop worrying and just try it. If RCIA ends up being a miserable, horrible experience, then you can always quit. But you don't know it's going to be that way, so the mere possibility shouldn't be a reason to not even try it in the first place.
I was received after going through RCIA. It was not onerous.
ReplyDeleteIf anything, it was so easy I considered it a bit of a lark. You see, I had already thoroughly become convinced of the Catholic Church being where I should be.RCIA was just about joining the community, through the front door, not sneaking in the side door. There's no disrespect in being a Catechumen. In fact, it's the opposite. You get special warm treatment, at least I always found it so.
RCIA is not a test you can fail. It's definitely not something someone can hold you back from.
It's YOU that does the discerning here, not Sister Whatsername, no disrespect intended.
Warren
Okay,Anna, Jeff, B, Warren, and others I'll start tomorrow. Will have to use phone to start, little trouble walking. We'll keep you all informed. Jack.
ReplyDeleteAnna, I forgot. Ann Landers is good. You must be under 40!!! Jack
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteI turned 27 last Saturday. :)
Jack,
ReplyDeleteWell, now I know why you're a boxing fan. You like to slug for the full 15 rounds, don't you? I knew I should have stopped at 12 or so.
Anna is very good, isn't she? As for myself, I should do well to heed these words in the letter to Timothy:
Do not rebuke an older man, but appeal to him as a father.
--1 Tim 5:1
My friends. Called diocesan office and 6 churches. 4 said to leave voice message. They would call back. But there are times that can't work for me.
ReplyDeleteOne said she didn't know what I was talking about.
One lady was very nice. Told me I might need to check if my baptism was valid. Said she knew some RCIA members were called Cathecumens and other candidats. Thought all should be put together because we all had a lot to learn. For example, did I know that the "wine actually changes to blood". I replied yes I was quite familiar with accident and essence. But very nice.
Called "home church" with staff of 15. Voice message said this was their lunch hour Call back in an hour. Unless it was emergency. Should have told recorded voice I wanted to give church 20 million dollars. Just a joke.
Spent a while on internet looking for statutes. I think the bishops are quite reasonable and right. Found one convert who was having a "hissy fit" over directions from bishops about RCIA. Was particularly insistent that candidates be called "converts" as he was!
Will try again tomorrow.
BTW nice lady said she thought it was left up to each parish how RCIA was handled. Sounds like Baptist before Criswell.
Listen guys I'm really trying, but can't I agree with American bishops? There reasoning is sound.
Incidentally my 'tone' was so 'lowly' I shocked myself!! Jack
Well... I guess we are some what understaffed to meet customer demand these days, as you may have heard...
ReplyDeleteSo, now you know. Now the secret's out. You can see what a dysfunctional family we are, like so many others. Have you ever heard that variation on our invitiation - "Jump on in! The water's awful!"
Jeff, where are the people like you around here. Lay people: really nice. Clergy nice too in a way but seem to know more about baseball and basketball than...well, about anything. "Home" priest and I have discussed basketball for hours.
ReplyDeleteOnce ask him during lull at dinner party if cardinals who elect pope are considered infallible in their choice. Ran from room; Understanable, we were discussing who would make "final four".
Guess I'm too square. Is blogdom only place people talk of religion? Jack
Got to be clear. "Final four" in basketball, not in popedom. Jack
ReplyDeleteJohn,
ReplyDeleteQuite frankly, a lot of them are tired, and perhaps burnt out. Bear in mind, many (if not most) of them would be retired now if they were in lay, civilian life.
Aw, Jack, give them some time. "Patience is a virtue" and all that.
ReplyDeleteYou're welcome to think the bishops are right - you just to have to accept that if someone doesn't do it the bishops' way, then they don't do it the bishops' way.
The cardinals voting for the pope are not exercising infallibility.
At least once you're in RCIA, you'll be able to find people to discuss religion with. [grin]
Given the fact that the percentage of the population in general who are interested in theological/doctrinal questions is relatively low, it shouldn't be too surprising that it is also low in the priesthood; I think most of them become priests because they want to help people, not because they care about whether Humanae Vitae is infallible.
I'm thrilled that you're going through with this, by the way. I'm praying that you will find the experience rewarding and spiritually fruitful.