Sometimes little things mean a lot. The friends I have in blogdom are,well,--the greatest. So I want you to forgive what you may think is petty and give the old man some advice.
One of the main reason I desire to be a RC is my family. As I have said they are all Catholic. Okay, you say, just become one. Not so fast my friends, as the TV football analyist says.
In the spirit of Vatican2 the RCIA process was established, to revive a very old tradition. I used to be able to find a good discussion of this on the internet, but now it's gone. Uhmmm. The gist of the article was that there should be a clear distinction between the un=baptised who had had no official church affiliation and those from other christian faiths. The article went on to say that an un do burden should not be placed on the latter.
Getting my nerve up, I sent a letter and a copy of an essay of mine that raised some religious issues as well as some questions about RCIA. I never got an answer but the nun who directs the RCIA program handed the material back to my wife with the comment:"This is too deep for me" I told this story on Joe's blog and got a reply: You can't expect a parish priest or RCIA director to answer this. Not Joe, but one of his commentators.
To continue with my boring story, I called the Bishop's office. The nice lady said go to a parish priest. I suggested the diocese might have a kind of in resident theologian who might handle my questions. She gave me a name. I called 4 times, he was never in and did not return my calls. I then called our local university that has a chair in catholic studies. I thought I'd be a bit more specific. So I said I wanted to discuss Fatima. The secretary said "There's nothing to discuss; it's been proven" Phoned bang down!!!
Next, ya, boring I know, I drove 25 miles to near town to talk to priest who I was assured was really 'with it'. He gave me 45 minutes[luncheon engagement]. Result
: Ten minutes on religion and 35 minutes on baseball. Still a lot of fun.
Last try. Three ladies who knew the situation said we know priests who will know how to handle this situation. But, of course that would put pressure on family at home church and school.
Just a final thought. Te RCIA director as the power to "fail" you in her course. Apparently she has a new set to the keys of the kingdom. And then the possible 3 years probation---I assume followed by Vatican CIA to see if your not 'naughty'.
Okay, what I'm saying is just too much. Even Alice is outraged!!
Possible solutions: 1. Go to 22 weeks of RCIA and keep my mouth shut. 2.Go to Rcia and ask questions like:How do I know the pope loves me?[joke}3.Go to other priests and insult families' priests.4. Forget it all.
I could go on, but maybe i've gotten the point over. BTW still get invitations to Rectory for dinners, which are great. Maybe I'm asking too much.
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Jack,
ReplyDeleteWhere do you live, man?
What tradition do you come out of, if any? Are you baptized? Reformed? No religious tradition?
I worked RCIA a couple of times (just helping out), and I think most of your concerns are probably unfounded. There was nothing of a martinet, demeaning, "Your fate is in the hands of mother superior" kind of thing about it. On the other hand, no one was as lukewarm as the people you've run into. Most people found it very helpful.
Sorry to give you the runaround, but I suggest you contact Talmida. She does RCIA.
Now, I'll divert you with sports too. I put up a boxing post on your behalf.
Jack,
ReplyDeleteHere's my recommendations:
Go to RCIA. When you ask questions, be gentle and sincere. If your manner of asking makes it clear that you think there really are answers to your questions and you just haven't found them yet, then a decent RCIA instructor will do her best to help you find them. If you have a lot of "doozy" questions, you might limit yourself to asking the ones you really care about, but don't be afraid to ask those questions you do care about.
Pray. Ask God at least once a week to give you the answers you are looking for. Also pray for the RCIA lady and for anyone else that you end up having contact with, that God will give them the grace to help you in your search.
If and when you come across a question that the RCIA lady just can't help you with, turn to other sources. Put the question up on your blog; do searches online to see if anyone else has dealt with the issue; write letters to that diocesan theologian who's too busy to return your calls; write a letter to the catholic studies chair person at the local university and hope that the letter gets by the secretary; write a letter or make a phone call to the cool baseball priest (and see if you can stay on topic this time); when you get invitations to the Rectory, bring it up and see what they say; try reading the Catechism for yourself and see if you can resolve your dilemma that way; read the Catholic Encyclopedia and see if it has any relevant comments; post your question on an online Catholic forum (such as or this one) and see if anyone can give you a decent reply.
In short, don't give up. You've already made extended efforts, and I think it's great that you've persisted through all of that hogwash. I also believe that in the long run, it will be worth it for you if you do keep trying.
Loved boxing post. On one of my other blogs, which got 'lost'{my fault} I listed my 10 greatest fights of all time. Marciano-Walcott I. In my opinion the greatest. Classic between puncher and stylist. Only one of my ten was not caught on film: Zale-Graziano I.
ReplyDeleteJeff, do I detect a touch of irritation in your comment? I gave my name, city, and possible church on another comment. You missed it, but that's alright--thousands too many comments to read!
Baptized? Yes. Life long Anglican.
Worked on doctorate at Emory University in philosophy of religion. But philosophy my first interest.
Entire family is catholic, with my strong support and encouragement>
Obviously my views are far to the left of majority in religion.
Went to blogs as last resort to find "liberal" catholics.
Found them.
Desire to become catholic, but want to "walk in" not crawl.
People who I mentioned I talk to were all very nice, with one exception, but are not interested in talking religion.
I believe they are afraid of me, though most people who know me find me very gentle,BUT I do like a good discussion. I think they interpret this as threatening. Come from family that LOVED a good verbal joust.
Have contacted Talmida as you suggested.
Thanks for your courtesies. Jack
Jeff, forgot to mention on Episcopal church vestry for several years. Just trying to show I'm not a pagan. Jack
ReplyDeleteHey Jack,
ReplyDeleteGlad you liked the Hearns/Hagler post. At least I didn't put up the best 15-Round Pro Fight (in my humble opinion) - Alexis Arguello vs. Aaron Pryor.
I've seen clips of Walcott vs. Marciano, and it looked incredible. You know, it's hard for me to rate Marciano, even with that undefeated record. Walcott and most of the other heavyweights he fought, like Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles, were way past their prime when they met up with him.
Was I irritated? Not at all irritated with you. I was just amazed at the lukewarm response and runaround from everywhere you went. That was why I was wondering what part of the country this was happening in.
Even with leftward tendencies, I don't think anyone is going to make you crawl to enter the Church, or treat you as if your whole life has been one big theological mistake, warning you not to go back like a dog to its vomit. ... Although, who knows, it's possible you could catch a bad break with all the "neo-orthodoxy" percolating up.
In my experience, everyone was treated with the utmost respect, and there was a lot of emphasis placed upon making the catechumen feel comfortable with all the various odds and ends of Catholic "inculturation". I find you questions about Fatima interesting, because when this topic came up one night, we almost lost the whole class. My observation was that for people coming from a Protestant background, Marian spirituality was the biggest stumbling block, ands apparitions, well those were just way over the top for them. Almost a deal-breaker.
What I found a lot of people liked was the Catholic appreciation for reason, and our reluctance to take most of scripture in a literalistic, fundamentalist sense that would pit Genesis against evolution, for example.
Just curious, however... Why the attraction to Catholicism at this stage in your life? Why Catholicism, and why now?
Jack,
ReplyDeleteYou wrote...
I believe they are afraid of me, though most people who know me find me very gentle,BUT I do like a good discussion. I think they interpret this as threatening. Come from family that LOVED a good verbal joust.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I would offer this one caveat about RCIA directors and most parish priests. They aren't really interested in doing apologetics. In other words, I'd say that most are interested in helping someone on a spiritual journey, but not necessarily knocking down a host of objections. If someone says "Explain this to me", gets and answer, and goes onto "OK then explain that to me>", I don't know if that is going to get much of a hearing.
Not accusing you of that necessarily, I don't know, but I think that would probably be the prevailing attitude.
Jeff, but the story was that Pryor was 'receiving' something between rounds. Don't know if it was ever resolved. But your right, a great match. Of course, I liked Alex. Sugar Ray Robinson re incarnated.
ReplyDeleteSecond comment. I've always been interested in catholicism because of my philosophy studies. As you suspect Newman is my favorite, yes Newman as a philosopher which he gets little credit for. Married at a young age and loved my inlaws but there wasn't a catholic 'story' they didn't buy. Well educated--Georgetown, Finch- but, to me, not thoughtful about religion. Final straw, and this is a bit difficult to say, forced youngest daughter to kneel and say rosary 5 minutes before she lapse into coma and died.
I know the church is big and has to appeal too all types and conditions of men, but Fatima, Boston girl in coma with stigmata---sometimes it seems church should say "hold on a minute".
So my not being catholic when family was, was basically a negative thing.
I turned to the blogs and your generous time and comments have been most helpful.
I never mentioned it but someone figured out I had cancer, which is right. Wil find out next tuesday what future looks like. But this is not a push to catholicism. If news is bad I'll stay where I am. Too much pride for death bed change of heart.
But my experience with catholics has been good, My best friend in high school was catholic and we had some great debates requested by our friends.
When my son died at 37, my wife was crushed. He hadn't been to church since about 12 except to be godfather to my two grandsons. But the church ask no questions. He had a funeral mass.
My son in law was methodist but went with my daughter to catholic church. BECAUSE he likes the people much better than the "high" methodist church he was attending.
Getting to me. Be back later. Jack
Not quite finished. Jack
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeletesometimes it seems church should say "hold on a minute".
The Church does, sometimes. Here is a whole list of apparitions that the Church has condemned (although I think Medjugorje is rather controversial... I wouldn't take this website's word for it that Medjugorje is condemned).
Most of the time, if the message of the vision doesn't seem to contradict the gospel, the Church will follow Gamaliel's approach in Acts 5:34-39 - in effect, playing it safe by allowing people to believe in the vision. Figuring it will cause less damage in the long run to allow people to believe in a false vision than it would to prevent them from believing in a true vision.
And part of the reasoning behind this is also based in an understanding of how people work. Miracles play a huge part in many, many people's faith. To say "hold on now" without being completely sure and confident that the occurrence is false, is likely to damage people's faith. The stakes can be high. For example, I have come across many, many people who rave about the wonders of Medjugorje. It has helped them believe in God and brought them closer to Christ. At the same time there is a quite complicated issue/debate about the standing of Medjugorje within the church. If the Church decided to press the issue and clearly, universally condemn Medjugorje, then many people's faith would suffer for it.
I'm very sorry to hear that Catholics pressured your daughter into kneeling to pray the rosary before she died. I think that kind of thinking is borderline superstition; it misses the point of God's all-consuming love for us, to think that he would demand a sick person to kneel or speak when that might be detrimental to their health. A person can pray in their heart, and that is the kind of prayer that matters most.
Anna, thank you for responding. I think the others have determined they are talking to the 'unstable'. Curiously enough most family and friends consider me the "old wise man" and come to me first for advice.I see what you are saying but wonder a little bit about poor means to support good ends. But really not a major problem with me.
ReplyDeleteIf no further responses, I will try and post my 4 or 5 brutally frank RCIA questions in day of two. Please keep in touch. Thanks. Jack
Anna, it was my sister-in-law who was forced by her parents to say rosary. Jack
ReplyDeleteHi Jack,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jeff. Also, my own experience with RCIA is similar to his. First of all, i think many, many catholics have this cultural tendency where there must be some super-expert somewhere that can answer all questions.
I think particularly with someone considering conversion there is a reluctance to accidentally say something that will discourage someone or misrepresent the church.
A Baptist, on the other extreme, would have no problem because they have no declared authority whom they could misrepresent, though they do train missionaries for apologetics.
Anyway, I also agree with Anna. Some of the Marian apparations are weird, and they are all optional as far as I know. I am not super big on Marian devotions. I see her as the greatest saint perhaps, but I also tend to feel that all saints are probably equal somehow in heaven in ways we don't understand.
I don't fully understand why fatima is such a big issue for you. I guess i don't know that much about it. I mean, most people are annoyed about birth control or gay rights, or because they think the Marian tradition is idolatrous and things of that nature. I'll have to wait for your post on the bits that are bothering you.
Also, please let me know if the online prayer thing is bothering you or is troubling with regard to privacy!
B, I am pleased that you have me on your prayer list!! Privacy means very little to me. So, thank you !!
ReplyDeleteFatima is of great interest to me because I have studied it rather thourougly. The whole situation is so patently and easily explainable by a first year college student, and so filled with nonsense {the sun crashing to the earth} that it bothers me that the church gives it credence. From a catholic point of view B16 did a great job in his report, leading some catholics to spasms of rage and insults to B16. when I read his report it's like someone locked him in a room and said"Make the best of this you can. I know it's hard, but do something!!!" I could go on but remember Alice's threat to send me to asylum if I mentioned it again. As I have said before, she thinks it's silly but it doesn't bother her.
but my final post on this round is on RCIA. So look if you will at my next post.
BTW I don't expect priest to be theologians but I would hope they would be able to comment on questions about church belief and positions.
Thanks again for your friendship. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteYou don't sound at all unstable to me. You just sound like a skeptic. I'm sure many skeptics are wise old men. :)
it was my sister-in-law who was forced by her parents to say rosary
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I have trouble understanding why anyone would put so much emphasis on the rosary as to make someone pray it who was sick.