I think some of you think I'm anti-catholic. Well I'm not. Alice has gotten in that position so I have to defend church. She thinks I been treated crappy, and she' a loving wife.3 year of hints, overtures, formal requests, generous with what money we have, rather expensive medals for scores of kids, attending catholic study groups etc. Well my friends I'm beginning to get a little peeved. Well I know what you're saying out there: just do what church says and they may let you in. Yes, this RCIA thing is big to me AND to the bishops. They agree with me but some partially educated priest just won't hear of it!!Talk about audacity!!
Listen I've endured 60 years of insults and acted like they wern't from devout catholics and pompous priests. So tomorrow I'm goin to talk about a few. If you're fair you'll agree I been most patient these 60 years. They've hurt me; my kids, my wife and I'm still to swammi to them!!Listen, no way! I'm reasonable; they're not.
Exceptions: B, Anna, Joe, Jeff, Caitilin {not a catholic} and probably left out a few. You are great; but you're not the church I know.
Some friends say tell them you're ill, they'll let you get by. I don't play that game. Still have my fire. BTW just writing this has got the adrenalin flowing so probably good for me. Seriously. Jack
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Dear Sir,
ReplyDeleteI can't understand why, if the situation is as you describe it, you would have any interest in belonging to it. Why not be happy as an Anglican rather than perpetually frustrated as a Catholic? If the Church does not make manifest the love of Christ, then it is failing, both you and its own mission. What is the attraction? I asked before, and you didn't answer, WHY is this something you want to do now?
Still praying for you, by the way--hope that you and Alice are holding up OK.
Love,
Caitilin
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of Catholics could use your fire! Your enthusiasm, your drive to know and understand all you can, and your earnest desire to really, deeply believe!
But for you, I think a choice might be coming between accepting the Anglican rite as Caitlin says or settling for the church with all of her lovely flaws, warts and all, and loving her as she is.
With puppies, children, spouses, and organizations it is always the same concious or unconcious decision at some point, to just love them as they are, not as you'd wish them to be.
A priest gave you an hour of discussion at lunch. But let's face it. A lot of priests would rather be helping the poor or just comforting someone, not arguing about Fatima, though your concerns are important! Arguing about Fatima may well be a great thing to do on the blogosopher when ther are so few priests to discuss things with. Other priests might even be lazy about such things. But how many hours of discussion will be enough? Won't an analytical mind like yours eventually find another thorny issue?
When I am full of grace and feeling faithful I am a model catholic. When I am not so full of grace I am a stoic/existentialist/epicurean, or I defy lables, but I continue in a secular Roman/stoic pattern of morals and behavior. I am not monolithic and never will be. I cannot be 100% reconciled to my expressed faith and creed at any one time, because I am not monolithic.
But at least for me, there is a striving towards faith and grace, and that's enough. I'll leave the details to the pros. For some of the stuff that really bugs me, maybe I'll rant about it in my blog. But the mass feels really authentic to me, and I'll stick with this particular grace vendor for now.
Well, I don't know if that helps or not but you're in my prayers on a daily basis.
All the Best, B
Okay, broke my promise. Horror stories would probably not interest you. "Nobodies perfect", as they say. So I'll leave out over 60 years of horrors. I'll even leave out RCIA for the moment!
ReplyDeleteI posted on winnepeg catholic what I thought was a good question. B pitched it. No offense b, I still think your great!! Just a tiny, tiny, tiny,bit miffed. Swetened it up but no answers yet. So I'll try here.
If a person has been married 2 times and had sexual relationship with wife 250. Then gets an annullment ad initio are the acts of first marriage chaste or unchaste? Bless all of you!!!
Certainly some scholar out there knows what probation in the church is? Well, what is it , what does it entail, and who decides how long your probation is? one or fifteen years? This has got to be a 'snap' question for a canon 'lawyer'. Thanks. Jack
Hi Jack, sorry about the deletion i was afraid it would hurt Warren's feelings as it was phrased because he was just in a nasty divorce and is now very soulfully pursuing anullment *prior* to any new relationship.
ReplyDeleteWell in my humble opinion the Anullment process would have to reconcile the newly created single as a sinner repenting a false marraige, which would mean X years and X acts of stains of mortal sin on the soul. Those are washed away by the grace of reconciliation but might require some time in purgatory.
But I am not sure how that would impact the discussion. Yes the church will agree that a prior marriage was a false one and therefore an unknowing/unintentional state of adultery and thuse somewhat equivalent to premarital sex. But, since it was done unknowingly it cannot be a mortal sin. It is pretty hard to see premarital sex as unknowingly committed on the other hand.
I am interested in your story if you'd like to write it. And other RCIA programs might benefit from your sharing it if Jeff and Talmida and ohers have a look. Who knows, perhaps Fr. V or some of the other blogging padres might stop by.
All The Best, B
B, really thanks for the response!! Thought I'd run everybody off. The point of my story is not to say how "bad" catholics, because they aren't. The point would be to show that, as a whole, catholics and the church have provoked Alice and me to a point where, as I said, I defend church; alice isn't so kind. Let me try one on you that isn't so personal but is irritating.
ReplyDeleteA former priest at our church has been deemed{and I don't now the exact term} worthy of sainthood. He was brutally murdered in a 'latin' country by a right wing dictatorship. He, to my knowledge, is never mentioned; after all Reagan was fighting communism, and the priest was with the peasants. This is not really my problem I guess but it does make you think. There may be a pcture of him somewhere in the rather large church amidst the 'gorgeous' portraits of millionaires who have given hughes sums of money to this church.
Sure the millionaires are nice...but. Jack
Now this is not personal with me, but I though I'd dropped it in as a 'starter'.
Hi Jack,
ReplyDeleteWhat's a recommendation for a good (and reasonably quick/readable) book on Newman?
Thanks B
B, there are many biographies. but let me HIGHLY recommend to you ""Newman and the Modern World" by Christopher Hollis. Deals with Newman in the light of Vatican II.Written in 1967 but still very insightful. I think you'll love it. It's kind of like you. Jack
ReplyDeleteJack,
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed you have any desire at all to be Catholic at this point, given what you've been through!
If John and Jane Doe get married, and then ten years later get an annulment, their sexual relationship is, technically, considered fornication. However, because the couple were not in a position to realize that it was fornication while they were doing it, they are not culpable for the sin.
I've honestly never heard of probation in the Church; perhaps whoever you heard of it from made it up, or was referring to something that particular parish does?
Your parish has definitely got its priorities mixed up if it puts up pictures of millionaires over pictures of a martyr. I am somewhat inclined to dislike pictures and plaques of donators anyhow.
So I guess the only thing I can think to say about the horrible things you have experienced in general is - do you want them to stop you from being Catholic? What do you think you ought to do about it? At the risk of sounding like a cheesy teenager, what do you think Christ would do in your situation?
I do think that, whether you become Catholic or not, it is in your best interest (and Alice's) to forgive these people for the sins they have committed against you.
Anna, from national statures: "Those baptized persons who have lived as christians and need only instruction in the Catholic tradition AND A PERIOD OF PROBATION { emphasis added} should not be asked to undergo a full program parallel to the cathechumenate."
ReplyDeletethere are other quotes but this is probably the clearest. Thanks for coming by. Jack
hello
ReplyDelete