Off my "lists" for a couple of days, and back to religion/theology/philosophy.
I ,at times, tussle with a young catholic convert who loves the term "holy mother church." Now I have been around many catholics all my life and never heard that term except from yesterday's convert. Older catholics, cradle catholics, never use this term.
But there is some wisdom in the "holy mother church" moniker. The Catholic Church is huge--over a billion members. Included are some of the greatest minds in the world, the simplest minds, and, yes, the great middle group. And there's the rub.
This is the year of Darwin and his discovery of the fundamentals of evolution. The 'great' mind group has no trouble with this doctrine in relation to Catholicism. The 'simplest' really don't think about such things; but Oh, that middle group. They're read a few pages on evolution, listen to a few crank scientist ( apparently only two) and decide to make their own judgment. So the Church, with children of all levels of knowledge, and especially under B16, wants to satisfy every member to a degree. So what does the Church do. Well it affirms evolution as a scientific fact, but then to throw a few crumbs to the "I have an opinion, and it's just as good as yours based on my 2 pages of information" group the Church's representative says: "Each human person is the object of a singular creative act by God, who also inserts himself naturally in the homo sapiens species, and appears at the end as the culmination of an immense evolutionary process about which some secrets are now being discovered." WHAT???
In this century A.J. Ayer wrote "Language, Truth, and Logic". Basically it dealt with the three 'levels' of statements. First were statements of fact, that is things we can verify. E,G, Dallas is in the state of Texas. Second were 'emotive' statements, e,g, "I hate country music." Such emotive statements tell us something about what the speaker feels but not anything about country music. And third---look at the quote above beginning with "Each human person....."statements that are meaningless. 'Meaningless' does not mean false, nor true, but since such statements are not verifiable, they give us no real knowledge. They are just words; there is no way to test the statement's truth or falsity. Yes, we argue about them, but our arguments really go nowhere. The statement is not subject to any test that would show its truth or falsity.
So, maybe "mother church" is wise. Affirm what science shows and knows, but throw a meatless bone to the pompous, self important, group to keep them in the fold. The Church is our 'Mother' and sometimes we need to say yes to our 'youngest,' in knowledge and reason, ' children'.
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"I hate country music."
ReplyDeleteWhat a emotive statement for anyone to make. You mean there are really people who don't like country music?
Maybe if they gave it a chance,it might crow on them just like The Catholic Church.
I hear ya Jack! I'm trying hard to understand you Victor but you're not making "IT" easy on me!
Take a number Jack! :)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your honest reply Jack.
ReplyDeleteI've just returned from visiting my Aunt at a funeral home and I only mention this because she had 16 children and one passed away or should I say died? Anyway, I'm sure that His Holiness would be very proud of her cause she was a good woman in more ways than one.
I'll certainly take a look at your son's blog but for some reason I'm a little scared to visit and I can't for the life of me imagine why? Go figure!
Thanks again Jack for having so much confidence in me. I think! :)
Victor,
ReplyDeleteJust forget about the other blog I mentioned. These boys were getting 'good conservative' catholic advice from a blogger. But that fell apart. Thanks
No problem Jack but if you ever change your mind SAV is always available. :)
ReplyDeleteGod Bless,
Peace
Victor,
ReplyDeleteWho is SAV? Jack
Gee! What did I start now?
ReplyDeleteSorry for putting my foot in my mouth.
You'll need to read my last post to maybe figure out where SAV originated from but if you choose not to, that's also perfectly ok cause that might just keep me from also putting the other foot in my mouth.
Be nice Jack,I heard that last thought! :)
Victor,
ReplyDeleteDon't want to scare anybody. Thanks for the offer, but we'll just drop it. Jack
Jack,
ReplyDeleteWhat did I say that scared you so bad you don't want me talking to Frank any more? When have I ever not been nice to him? What exactly is it that you think I think?
God bless,
Anna
Amma,
ReplyDeleteThis is hard for me. I think you know I respect, not agree with, your views on religion. I think you also know how much Alice and I care for these three guys. I want them to hear other points of view, and I think I have shown that.As you know I did not want them looking at my blog until they were a bit more intellectualy mature. My special concern is Frank. He is in college and thinks about these things.
But Anna your views on religion and public education are so extreme, so out of even the broadest 'main stream' of even the most conservative scholarship, that I did not want Frank, and Derr and Lance,to consider them. I do not want them, for example, engaged in dialogues with Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormon cult members. These groups are trained, not in religion, but in how to argue and they can be persuasive to those not trained in this type of activity.
Now as to your views on religion in our society. They are so far out of even the broadest main stream, and since the guys respect you, I feel there is a danger, like trying to argue with a flat earth theorist or an I.D. 'debater.'
The issue you bring up in the religion and the public schools have been settled for over a half century at least. As I noted, the supreme court of the U.S., even its most conservative members, do not even entertain the idea that public schools should have "excessive entanglement" with the propagation of particular religious beliefs. Schools are not churches; there job is teaching not preaching religious dogmas. Your idea of allowing religious services in school as long as those not of that religion can be excused was rejected by the court over a half-century ago. It is no longer argued, even by right wing groups. The idea of each religion, and in America we have hundreds of religions along with those who believe in none---the idea that each of these groups can use the schools to advance their particular cause as long as everybody has that right would be to turn the schools into a series of religious 'gangs', not an educational institution. This is accepted by all courts and by almost all Americans except an estreme few. Schhols are not religious institutions, they are not churches.
Now you bring up the Jehovah's witnesses. I hope you are aware of the judicial status of this group and its beliefs in the public schools. This is a rare case, but was settled, apparently to everyones satisfaction in the early 1940's. No one, to my knowledge, even discuses this situation except as of historical interest.
Now you say, "Well, not every religion should be able to use the schools to further their beliefs." But can't we have just a "Christian" ceremony or instruction, not sectarian. The courts say "no." Two reasons. That is still using a public institution to advance a particular religion and also it would lead to the "Public School Christianity." That is a watered down version of the beliefs of the separate religions into an amorphous "be kind to your neighbor" religion which in itself would discriminate against catholic, Baptist, Mormon, and on and on--- almost all religions who teach more than just being kind, good as that is.
You remember once, Anna, that we had a brief debate over the first amendment in which as I recall you at first argued that it was alright for the majority to dictate the dress codes of the public as is done in some Muslim counties. Later you said you did believe in the first amendment. So we are back to the start. Your argument that the schools can be used to advance religious views as long as every religion and non-religions have the same right to use the schools to advance their cause is so foreign to the spirit of our constitution and way of life that I do not consider it a subject for serious discussion and believe it is a view held by almost no one of education, which you are.
Now, I know you or your friends may respond with "Anna never said what you say she said." But I believe most people regard it as fair debate to draw inferencs from even a short statement. I think it is quite clear that your view of religious advancement and the role of the public schools is quite clear. Public schools can (and should)be a vehicle to advance sectarian views on religion or non-religion is your view. Other than at the very fringe, this doctrine is not what America is or has been about.
Let me repeat. Frank, Derr, and Lance saw you as a friend, I guess to whom they told things that they did not tell even Alice or me. I think that was great---to have such a friend. But there are limits, and I believe, with all sincerity, that some of your views were beyond the vale. I believe Lisa(?)saw this to an extent in the comment she made.
I have no hard feelings to you or Ken. But I believe you are getting information from certain fringe groups and writers that should not be representative of a person of your intelligence and insight.
I will tell our three guys, I heard from you. That will please them. Jack